Mr. Ultan Courtney:

I thank Deputy Stanton. I do recognise the difficulties. I believe I have already made that submission to the committee about the pressures everybody is under regarding this issue, no matter if they are a worker, an employer, the State or anybody else. The only good news is we have a surplus in the budget and we are able to do something to try to alleviate that pressure. That should, I hope, be a one-off. If it is not, we have a different problem. We have faced this before. We have to figure out how we are going to deal with that, which will require a different response. At the end of the day, the role of the Low Pay Commission is to contribute to trying to find a solution to some of these issues.

There was a very telling comment made, I think by Deputy Stanton, about different times and the sense there is a progression in the thinking on these matters. Certainly, when I was younger, any talk of a minimum wage was seen as completely anathema. It was seen as something that would have devastating consequences for employment. That has not proven to be the case. I believe part of the reason for that has been that the economy has grown. Many of the actual factors we need for growth in the economy are there.

The challenge, and it is a challenge, and I thank the Deputy for recognising that, and while I do not have the answer, I do have a path going forward with the co-operation of the commission, the Government, the Oireachtas, obviously, and everyone else, is to try to get to a situation where a living wage, if it is to be implemented, is implemented in a sensible fashion from which people will benefit. I am a strong believer, and I know all of the members of the commission are, that it is important to keep businesses competitive to provide additional income for people and give them an opportunity to progress and grow into the future. That is very important going forward. Rather than being a low-wage economy, we need to be a higher-wage economy, giving the benefits of that particular growth to, or trying to share the benefits of it with, everybody as we do that. We are constrained by this fear that at the end of the day we do more harm than good. The more information and statistics we get, the better.

I was quite taken aback by a comment in the Maynooth report where it was stated that there was not really any evidence - there was some - that the impact on employment was in any way substantial.

That was an eye-opener for me because the traditional economic model suggested there would be. Much of our thinking was framed by that, but the report is also cautious about the 60% and 66% targets. It states that because people are not at that level, there is no information and the academic research is not available to support that approach. Until we get that information, we must be cautious about it. I do not make an apology for that because at the end of the day, I will not suffer. Either a small business will close, and they do close, or a worker will have his or her hours reduced or lose his or her job. I certainly do not want to go back to that.