David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

The discussion has been very interesting. I remember when the national minimum wage came in first. It was under the Minister at the time, Mary Harney, if I remember correctly. It was a seismic change. It is now embedded, thankfully, and we talk about it as being normal. As Deputy Bruton said, we want it to be sustainable. We want people to get the most they can out of it.

I notice in Mr. Courtney's recommendation that he says it is not a panacea and that the minimum wage will not now compensate workers for inflation and recent increases. He goes on to say that the supports to low-paid workers should be considered in the context of budget 2023, which, as Deputy Bruton pointed out, has happened. Mr. Courtney also states the budget should be a cost-of-living budget and the commission recommends that additional measures be taken to support the minimum wage and low-paid workers. Am I right in saying that, when Mr. Courtney is making his recommendation, he is factoring in supports from the State to low-paid workers as well? Mr. Light seems to feel that should not be the case, that it should be an add-on. Correct me if I am wrong. There seems to be a situation where the State is supporting low-paid workers to quite a large extent.

One figure I noticed is that the number of people receiving the working family payment has dropped quite a bit from 2016 to this year, by almost 9,000. I do not know why that is. Perhaps Mr. Light can explain why that might be the case, given we are at almost full employment. We have 4.5% unemployment, which is essentially full employment. That is one question and observation rolled into one.

We should have employers and business in before the committee as well as soon as possible to discuss this. We have all received a lot of fairly startling information from small and family businesses regarding the pressures they are under now, such as the cost of energy increases, the cost of rates going up, the cost of turnover going up in some instances, which is related to rates, and so forth. Many of them are under an awful lot of pressure. I would contend, and I am sure Mr. Light and others would agree with me, that it is better that people be at work and getting the minimum wage, as articulated, and the State supports than to be out of work. I am concerned that we could have a lot of small and family businesses going to the wall in the next few months because they just cannot be sustained. They are telling us that some of the things they might have to do is to reduce hours, reduce labour costs or let people go. We do not want this to happen either.

Mr. Courtney and his team have a tough job in trying balance the competitiveness of the economy with trying to keep people in jobs and to keep businesses sustainable. We live in unprecedented times. People are talking about nuclear war. This is just phenomenal. As Deputy Carthy, I think, said, we have to start thinking about where we are at. This is unprecedented. I am old enough to remember the 1970s and the fuel crisis at that stage. That was scary but it was short and sharp. This is a crazy time we are living in at the moment. I hope we will get to the end of it, but who knows. I will leave it at that. Perhaps the Mr. Courtney could respond.