Ms Maria Joyce:

It is a very damning indictment of our education system if the first positive experience of education for many Travellers is in prison. That aside, it still does not mean it has the critical outcomes that are needed. Good work is happening but there is also much more that can be done. I know from the work we did in Dóchas that some of the women will say that they go down and the class is full or if they have to wait for another service before they go to the school and the lists are full, they cannot get in. Again, it is on paper as being a service but having real accessibility is another kettle of fish.

Another point about education is that it is really important that educators in prison are not steering Travellers into particular types of courses that are stereotypical or do not challenge them to address what they need to address. We have seen that where Travellers have availed of opportunities within prison and externally, they have excelled but there is not enough of that. There is a degree to which they will be steered towards a certain type of course, so it is important that some of that stuff is addressed.

Regarding some of the points about racism and the online level of racism, when it comes to Travellers, online racism and hate are at a whole other level. As we all know in this country, the legislation was not fit for purpose in terms of addressing this matter. Hopefully, with the new hate crime and hate speech legislation that is being progressed through the system, it will be addressed. It also needs to address the issues facing Travellers who are incarcerated in prisons but it will not. Recently, we saw a private Facebook page involving former and current prison officers and gardaí that contained hate and racism towards Travellers. These people are working in prisons and are in direct contact with Travellers. Accountability is another critical issue. Whatever mechanisms in the new hate crime and hate speech Bills that are introduced need to take account of those in the prison system and ensure accountability. These are agents of the State. We should not be talking about the issue of discrimination and racism towards Travellers in prison. I know there is a level of it from other prisoners but it should not exist in those who are governing.

There is a need for targeted supports and resources to address the issues that have created the disproportionate number of Travellers in prison. Having said that, it is really important we do not go down the route of a segregated or separate system because that has never served Travellers well in this country no matter what form it has taken, be it in education or anything else. It is really important that there are targeted measures to address particular issues, particularly the experience of racism and discrimination.

Regarding the complaints system, we have had numerous discussions with some of the women in Dóchas who felt they could not or would not make complaints because it was not safe. There was a real fear of it being traced back to a particular individual. If confidentiality cannot be assured in a new complaints system, there is something wrong. I know that there was a CCTV camera in Dóchas close enough to where the complaint box was at one point. No woman who is trying to make a complaint wants it to come back to her with consequences. She would be very fearful about it. There is a need to ensure more culturally appropriate responses. Regarding the point about mental health supports within the system, there are services but there are large waiting lists. Where we have seen services that can come in and respond directly to the needs and allow Travellers to see themselves recognised and their issues recognised - not just because they are Travellers - with specific services like the Traveller Counselling Service, they have had an impact but it is not enough and there needs to be more of that.