Mr. Henry O'Donnell:

I thank Deputy Fitzmaurice for the questions. I totally agree with his first point on certification costs. The closest thing a conventional farmer gets to certification is Bord Bia approval. Some farmers may have difficulties with aspects of Bord Bia inspections but at least they are not charged for them. Surely the organic system could be the same and certification should not be an additional cost to a farmer?

As I said, conventional farmers are certified as Bord Bia-approved. Surely, there could be similar mechanism for organic farms. The next thing Deputy Fitzmaurice mentioned is the transport of organic stock. I was laughing to myself thinking of that. Living 20 miles from Malin Head, I am acutely aware of this. Part of the issue, to my mind, is that the organic sector is not properly developed. If there were more farmers, more things could be done. There could be more co-operation. In the short term, our proposal put in that organic farmers should get access to at least a 60% targeted agriculture modernisation schemes, TAMS, grant for proper livestock transport trailers. The closest organic mart to me is Drumshanbo. If I were assisted and had a good transport trailer to transport them, it would be some help in the short term, at least.

Regarding the lack of organic lamb, Deputy Fitzmaurice is obviously aware that the Irish Natura and Hill Farmers Association, INHFA, has spearheaded a campaign to develop a market for our hill lamb. As the Deputy rightly said, they are organic, for all intents and purposes. The current certification and organic system does not work, end of story. We have looked at it in great detail. That is part of our reasoning that our organic scheme needs to be overhauled. We have an organic product that we cannot get certified as organic; we cannot sell it as organic; and we cannot market it as organic. Therefore, there is something intrinsically wrong there. We have basically organic produce that cannot be certified.

The straw would be a concern. Organic farmers are more dependent on straw than anybody else. I would have thought it would be easy to provide a derogation to a conventional farmer. He would still get the straw chopping payment measure. He would still get the payment, if he were able to prove that he sold the straw to an organic farmer. Again, something could be done there.