Mr. Justice John Hedigan:

I did not say that. There is a serious problem with culture but I meant that we are looking to the future to try to do something. Nobody understands better than the seven non-banking members of the board, to whom the Deputy referred, the disastrous situation that has occurred. When I was a judge sitting in the courts, particularly when I was a member of the High Court, people appeared before me in tears. I fully acknowledge that Deputies are closer to the coalface than we judges are, given that Members hear about such cases all the time from their constituents, but I have had some distressing experiences in court with poor devils in terrible situations and I understand all the trouble there was. Nevertheless, I like to think of myself as a pragmatic idealist, an optimist, and someone who has not lost his faith in human nature. I believe we can turn the matter around.

As for the current banking culture, I can only say the bankers I have met at the top level, that is, the chief executive officers and chairpersons, have assured me they are fully committed to it. I can believe that because even if there was not a moral element, the Shearman & Sterling report on banking conduct, which was published in March 2019, stated that between 2009 and 2017, financial institutions globally paid €345 billion in fines and penalties. That is no way to do business. It is just total incompetence and has to be addressed. If one wishes to take a hard-nosed view, bankers have good financial reason to change, irrespective of any moral dimension. I believe they do have such a dimension, however, although I will not name names. The chief executive officers I have met have assured me culture is at the centre of their thinking because it is the only way to regain public trust, which they have to do.