Mr. Jim Murray:

Yes. I suspected I should not say "millions", and of course not.

There are 400,000 deferred members, 100,000 plus or minus active members and 100,000 plus or minus pensioners so there are twice as many deferred members as the other set of members combined. Again, the question of whether a continuation of the scheme is very much to the detriment of the younger members depends on the case. The Pensions Council certainly did not think it was something that would always have to be applied. Depending on the case, the parties will have plenty to say for each other perhaps. When the Pensions Authority comes to review any scheme under Article 50, the only thing it must ensure is that any restructured scheme is sustainable and that there are enough funds or enough of a prospect of funds to continue it.

What Deputy O'Dea said about elections is true but these always have an influence. Without in any way appearing to suggest that pensioners are well off because they are clearly not, we must go back to the point that 100,000 pensioners, which is about 16% of the total number of members, share 59% or 60% of the funds available. The other 500,000 pensioners between them have about €20 billion in terms of liabilities so there is a significant loss, particularly to active members, when a scheme is closed down. Usually, there is a loss to pensioners but the loss of prospects for the younger members needs to be taken very seriously. I am not trying to pit young against old but from the point of view of a legislator or Government, one must look at the overall situation. One would need to start on the basis that all three sets of members of pension schemes believe they are hard done by. It would be a natural enough sentiment to have but a Government or a law and the trustees must look at the overall situation.