Victor Boyhan (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. Lemass and his team for coming in today. I read the paper they submitted in advance and thank them for it.

I am conscious that we are dealing with the Local Government (Establishment of Town Councils Commission) Bill 2017 and I want to keep my remarks focused on that. I am conscious of the document Putting People First, produced in 2012. Many of its recommendations were never delivered on. It might have been over-ambitious. It was very much a matter for the Department and the then Minister, who is a very dominant character by nature. This was his thing. He brought it out and claimed it was to be the panacea for local government reform. It really has not worked and we have to acknowledge that. That was yesterday. That was the past and we are now looking forward.

I detect from reading the submission that there is resistance on the part of the Department. The officials are clearly agents on behalf of the Department. They are very capable public servants. The decision is a collective one but I would like the officials to clarify whether they have a sense that the Minister, political people, advisers and the Secretary General are generally supportive of this Bill. We need to hear that, and that is what we are here to tease out.

I said to the preceding witnesses that I do not believe we have local government at all; we have local administration. Until we tackle the issue of local government funding and the power to raise and retain it 100% locally, we will not be doing anything about local government reform.

I am all in favour of local, district and town councils but we have a lot of work to do, as the witnesses acknowledged, regarding existing councils. It is not good enough to say we have to address the existing city and county council structures and the associated anomalies and weaknesses while ignoring the rest. This is because there is a role for different layers within local government. I refer to elected local government officers but also to NGOs, community activists, small groups, Tidy Towns, residents and enterprise associations. All of these play an important role in developing economic, sustainable, vibrant communities in which we can live, play and work. That is really important.

I note that Mr. Lemass mentioned the terms of reference for the review of the local government boundaries. We know they have been agreed. They were just published today and people are already talking about them. I still believe we should go ahead with this work because this Bill is very important.

Mr. Lemass said a survey was carried out. Out of over 900 city and county councillors, how many actually completed the survey? What was the nature of the engagement with the Association of Irish Local Government, AILG? I would like to go away from here today with a very clear picture of the Department's understanding of the positions of AILG and the Local Authority Members Association, LAMA. What engagement was there? What did the representatives say to Mr. Lemass? They are representing people. Sometimes between its delivery to the Custom House and its coming back here, the message gets a bit lost. I want to go away from here with a full understanding of the level of support. Am I right in hearing Mr. Lemass as saying there is a need to park this for a few years and bed down the system? I want him to say that to me if it is the case. I am not hearing that message from some of the representatives. We need to sort that out and be on the one page in that regard.

In principle, I believe this is fundamental legislation. Clearly, it may require tweaks. I get a sense across all the political divides in the Houses that there is broad support for this initiative. I would really like to hear from the delegates about the survey and the key remarks on the feedback therefrom. Second, I would like the delegation's understanding of what AILG and LAMA have asked for and mandated.

Mr. Lemass posed a series of questions at the end of his speech. They were all very good and valid. We are here to ask some questions and not necessarily to answer them but I would like to attempt to do both because it is a two-way process. I would like the answers to the questions. Clearly, someone teased out the possibilities referred to in the questions. I would like at some stage, not necessarily today, a written response from Mr. Lemass outlining his thoughts on those questions. Considering that he has raised them, he has clearly been thinking very extensively about this issue. I would like him to share his conclusions or thoughts on these matters.