Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour) | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. Lemass for his presentation. It is important that we look at the questions asked. One proposal that might cause us all concern, if it were to be a problem, is the current commitment to reduce the size of local electoral areas. It is being considered and it is being suggested that if this proposal went ahead, it would delay that process and it would not be possible to do it in time for the local elections in 2019. I do not see why it would not be possible to go ahead with both the proposal to reduce the local authority areas and the commission on town councils. Why would one exclude the other? Perhaps the Department might clarify why the constituencies could not be dealt with in advance of local elections.

The other issue that came up in discussions with Deputy Cassells earlier was the need for budgetary control at town level. Municipal areas at the moment do not have control of their budgets and therefore do not have power. The need for local authority members to have real decision making power was discussed earlier.

We also referred to other European countries. Have models of local government elsewhere been considered? My specific knowledge pertains to France while that of Deputies Ó Broin and Cassells relates to Spain and Italy, respectively. We all have experience of how the systems work in those countries local government is much stronger and where there are municipal authorities that are much smaller than our county or city authorities.

I accept Mr. Lemass's point in respect of only 14% of the population being represented and that only 7% of local government activity was carried out on behalf of town councils. Nobody is suggesting that we go back to exactly the same old system. I made the point earlier that my county of Limerick had no town councils under that old system. Clearly, it would have to be based on certain population sizes. I ask that the Department have an open mind about the proposal being put forward by Deputy Cassells and to recognise that in other countries, local government is much stronger. People there identify with decision making at local level. In Ireland it is very much around city and county managers and their staff rather than elected representatives having real power and real responsibility. When one has power, one has to take responsibility. That is a good thing for democracy and local representation. Those are my main points.

I am a bit confused about the reference to how the negative impact on the county councils might be addressed. Mr. Lemass stated "some of them would be reduced to largely rural authorities with much diminished resources". I presume the towns would not be excluded from the responsibility of a county council. The proposal is talking about a lower tier that is closer to a local community but clearly, those towns are still part of their counties. I am confused by that comment.