Dr. Geoffrey Shannon:

I thank Deputy O'Callaghan. It is important to come back to the reluctance of some gardaí to exercise their powers, which was the Deputy's first question. One of the issues which was not discussed at the time is the nature of the power. It is a subjective power. When a garda arrives at the house, generally chaos greets him or her. If one reads through some of the examples, the treatment meted out to some of our children is shocking beyond words. The garda must ask him or herself what they should do. If one puts oneself into the same position, it is not an objective power. At the time of the Athlone case and the Tallaght case, this issue was not discussed. From a legal perspective that is hugely important because the garda has to make up his or her mind having regard to what he or she believes is a fact. That links into the Deputy's later question on why this information needs to be documented because we need a contemporaneous record of what the garda was feeling at the time so that we can then assess whether that subjective power was properly exercised.

The Deputy's question was on providing reassurance to gardaí. I have tried to look at this and have come up with a solution. My recommendation in the report is that a laminated card, which I have prepared, be sent to every garda throughout the country. This card is in appendix 4. It could be condensed even further but this could be provided to every Garda station and every garda. It is not high-level to the extent of other reports but I have tried to make it as practical as possible. If the lead person who has responsibility for training in this area decided to supply every garda with a copy of the laminated card - which outlines what a section 12 power is and what needs to be considered - then as a garda is heading off to what he or she believes may be a situation which will require the exercise of section 12, he or she would have an aide-memoire.The garda could read through it very quickly to see whether he or she thinks it meets the threshold. It is a very practical suggestion which should be implemented. Coming back to Deputy O'Callaghan's question, that would give confidence to gardaí that they are properly exercising their powers.

The Deputy raised a really important point on the ethnocultural data. The audit had two key findings and it is important to come back to them. The overwhelming finding is that gardaí commit great efforts to treating children sensitively and compassionately when a child has been removed under section 12. The second finding is that no evidence could be found that racial profiling influences the exercise of section 12 powers. However, in the context of the changing nature of Irish society, the public needs to have full reassurance on that. We need to start documenting the information. It is quite a complicated issue. If one looks at some of the figures, it would appear to be that certain ethnic minorities are overly represented but there may be a reason for that and sometimes the public explanation is too simplistic. I have tried to outline why it is so much more complicated and nuanced on page 109 of the report. I state:

this statistical trend does not in itself establish a practice of racial profiling in relation to section 12 ... In the context of the operation of the child protection system in ethno-culturally diverse areas, recent literature indicates there may be other factors that can explain at least some of this over-representation. For example, part of this over-representation may be attributable to different cultural norms in relation to the disciplining of children. While all cases examined by the audit involving removal of children from Nigerian and Romanian families appear to have been justified, part of this over-representation may also be accounted for in a higher level of policing of those communities. However, on this latter point, it should be emphasised that the audit did not find anyevidence of a distinct policy or practice of policing the family lives of immigrant communities more heavily.

That brings me back to a key point, that of training. We have to train our gardaí because of the issue of unconscious bias. We all have some element of bias and we have to guard against that. That can only happen if there is robust training, not just on child protection but also on ethnocultural issues. That has to be a priority. What is the benefit of the information? It is a subjective power and, in the interests of transparency, it is my view that the State has no greater power than for a garda to walk into a family and to remove a child. That warrants a proportionate response, which is the comprehensive documentation of the circumstances that led the child to be removed and placed in the care system. That is why I suggest that there be a fairly comprehensive record. The other reason that led me to that conclusion is the fact that the data which appeared on PULSE showed that some gardaí went to exceptional lengths.

Some narratives were akin to a mini-article on why they exercised their section 12 powers, while, in other cases, it was a mere line. We want consistency. This is an extraordinary power which is unparalleled in any other area of the law. We want to make sure that when the Garda exercises this power, it is justified.

Coming back to the point Deputy Daly raised, if it is a child protection issue, the proper avenue to deal with that is through the courts system. We want to ensure we are not bypassing the courts system in the interest of expediency. That is why we need to have a pretty comprehensive picture as to why the Garda might exercise these powers. That may take longer, but this power is truly much more exceptional than any other power that An Garda Síochána exercises. It is for that reason it is necessary.

I share the view of Deputies O'Callaghan and Chambers on the issue of alcohol abuse. Deputy Chambers also raised the issue of gambling on the previous occasion. I often struggle with the alcohol issue because I believe there is a strong vested interest in this area. What politicians need to do is take on those vested interests and to say that child protection has to take precedence over big business. I wonder at times at the delay in introducing legislation to tackle this issue which is concerning and has consequences. Anyone reading chapter 3 of the report will be left in no doubt that it has resulted in shattered lives for children. Those childhoods cannot be regained. The time for action is now.