John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

Thank you, Deputy Deasy. For the information of members, Deputy Costello has indicated, as have Deputies McDonald, Dowds and McFadden. That is the order in which members will contribute. Before I call Deputy Costello, I want to bring the meeting back to the reason we are here. It arises from poor information or misinformation, the work of the whistleblowers and their bravery in coming forward.

I would have thought, Mr. O'Brien, given the content of what has been told to the HSE by the whistleblowers and the extreme nature of the abuse we are speaking about, that you would have availed of the opportunity to be a lot more open in your opening statement. I see the English language being used to strengthen the veil of secrecy around what is going on. It is a pathetic attempt to continue what happened at our previous meeting.

I want to answer the question that Mr. O'Brien asked Deputy Deasy. He might answer it in a different way, having reflected on it. Mr. O'Brien asked him if he understood the legal advice and the legalities of where Mr. O'Brien stood. Let me be clear about this. Mr. O'Brien said that he shares our frustration. He has no idea of the degree of frustration and anger that exists throughout the country, beyond this committee, concerning this issue. As we get nearer to the centre and to the families concerned, and we experience the sadness and watch on their faces the question marks and the fact they have misplaced their trust in Mr. O'Brien's organisation, one cannot even begin to answer them or to understand that sadness. I do not know how the individuals who suffered in this foster home feel.

To answer the question about this legal discussion that Mr. O'Brien had with Deputy Deasy, what about the rights of the 47? What about the breach of their rights? What about the fact their rights were trampled upon, kicked around and ignored by the State and Mr. O'Brien's organisation? What about those rights?

Mr. O'Brien can find all the fancy words in the English dictionary to describe this. It is alleged rape. It is alleged sexual abuse of the most horrific kind. It is physical abuse. It is in the form of evidence where the clients appeared in hospital, battered and bruised. It is in the form of evidence from the whistleblowers as to what happened. Yes, we speak now about Grace and Ann, but there are 47 people affected by this who cannot speak for themselves, who could not speak for themselves at the time and who are intellectually disabled.

Your defence is not of them; your defence is of those who ignored that house to one degree or another, those who failed in their duty of care. That would seem to be your defence. I find that absolutely shocking because of where we are today and because we are here today. I understand the legalities around the publication. However, I want you to understand this - it is not about the members of the Committee of Public Accounts and what we feel. It is about you giving some sort of comfort to these 47 and to all others in care in this State on this day, but I do not get that comfort from your statement. I do not get a sense that the HSE gets it. That is what is coming across in the opening questions from Deputy Deasy and the conversation around those questions.

I will call Deputy Costello next, and I am honestly asking you to please reflect on the state of play within the HSE and on those within the HSE who know exactly what happened because they do know. I wish to remind you that in 1993 the South-Eastern Health Board carried out investigation after investigation because of the Kilkenny incest cases. There was a spotlight on the South-Eastern Health Board for a long time during this period. There was a concentration on the care for the intellectually disabled and those in care. How this home escaped all of that, I do not know. I am not convinced that what was going on was not widely known within the HSE at the time.

I will finish on this. In his opening remarks Mr. O'Brien adverted to those who were referred to this service by the HSE or the health board, as it was then. There were other referrals - from the Brothers of Charity I think - but they stopped those referrals because of suspicions they had in 1990. However, the HSE or the health board continued.

A further aspect is that individuals were taken into that foster home independently of either the HSE or the Brothers of Charity. I would have expected you to avail of the opportunity today to give an overall context to how this house existed at all, to its interaction with the HSE or the health board and the Brothers of Charity and to how they independently took in individuals.

Lastly, I thought you would have dealt with the complaint made by an authority in England. We are told an authority in the United Kingdom made a complaint in respect of the service and concerns certain individuals had. That is the context for today's meeting. Let us not forget the horrific nature of the abuse in this case as you answer questions.