Mr. Gordon Jeyes:

These are all Government bodies. Deputy Mitchell O'Connor made the point about resources and I will deal with that again. I have been in a leadership role in public services for 25 years. It is always the case that elected members need to keep it under tight and rigorous control in order to give value to the taxpayer. That will never stop so I welcome an open book. HIQA reports have stated there are not enough resources at local level. HIQA has stated it is interested in reporting on a national basis. I have written to the chief executive of HIQA to say that I welcome such a report. I want to know what categories it will examine and what criteria it will use. I wish it to be seen to be the case that we have done very well on extra effort and extra hours and a great deal of willingness and professional support, but it is not sustainable. I would be failing in my duty to the Government, having successfully taken us through the recessionary period, if I were not to provide that advice which I can substantiate.

On the point about Mullingar, there were no reductions in front line services for refugees. There were ancillary reductions in counselling supports. I will be happy to speak to the Deputy outwith. A particular organisation receives resources from us for a number of features. I deeply regret not being able to announce year reductions late in the year. That was past practice, which I thought we had moved beyond. It was unacceptable and I apologise. We need to have clarity in our budget as soon as possible. We need to ensure that we are clear and that we have had the necessary consultations so that we move forward and communicate far earlier than we managed last year.

I welcome Deputy Troy's interest in guardians ad litem. He is quite correct that there needs to be systems of regulation. It needs to go further than that, in my view. There are those in the Judiciary who believe that guardians ad litemare clearly not party to the proceedings and, therefore, they should not, other than in very exceptional circumstances, have legal representation.

Deputy Mitchell O'Connor rightly asks what are we doing to put our own house in order. Last year, we tidied up a lot of historical expenditures on other things. Our legal expenditure was in the order of €36 million. This year it will be near to target of €29 million. Of that, more than 50% will be in guardian ad litemand guardian ad litemlegal costs, each of which is increasing dramatically, in particular, the legal costs and guardian ad litem. It is a normal rule that if one has the chance to spend someone else's money, one is more profligate. The accountability does not work and, therefore, we need to have a register of guardians ad litem, fixed payments and regulation. The responsibility for it should have nothing to do with Tusla. As Senator van Turnhout pointed out, guardians ad litemhave a valuable job and a contribution to make, sometimes holding us to account. Therefore, I cannot hold them to account. The view that I can restrict their movements is not the case. Therefore, any reform or any proposal on pay should not be part of our agency. Accountability and pay, in my view, go together quite strongly.

Deputy McLellan asked about organisational structure. We have a more consistent approach to aftercare. We have the minimum guarantee but our legislative basis is for us to support the young people who are in full-time education or training.

We have to look at the other 32%, not least because of the pressures across Europe. We have had very constructive discussions with the Department of Social Protection. I think children and young people coming out of care should constitute a specific category, regardless of whether they are going back to their families or managing on their own resources. This is happening across Europe. The social protection system, on behalf of the State, should be identifying these young people. If we are giving them an allowance from the State at that point, of course we should be making sure they understand that further or adult education and training are necessary for all of them.

This should not be rocket science. If we work with the authorities that are responsible for housing and social protection to make sure these young people have the right resources, we can close the gap I have mentioned. The small number of children and young people in this group want independence. We can support them in that transition. The Government will legislate to make the plans compulsory. Once these young people become adults, responsibility for them lies with the relevant authorities in areas like education, health, housing and social protection. There is no use in Tusla becoming a mere second-class service that props up these services. That will not work. We have specific responsibilities. We need to increase our street workforce of aftercare workers and advisers who help young people when they get into difficulty. Reference has been made to education and training. We need to build better links with the school completion programme.

I would like to speak about the lack of consistency issue. We are making progress in Louth-Meath, where different practices were adopted, relationship issues existed and the definition of a "referral" needed to be considered. Those matters are being addressed, for example by making sure additional resources are provided, as was done in the midlands. The issues in Louth-Meath were different from the issues in the midlands. It is unfortunate that they arose at the same time. There were particular unacceptable problems in Louth-Meath regarding recruitment and carrying too many vacancies. We are taking positive action to reform that.

We think we need to come up with a budget formula that is based on the number of children in an area with a deprivation who are waiting. We are having further discussions on what degree of weight to attach respectively to the density of urban poverty and the difficulties of rural circumstances, where sparsity or difficulty of accessing services can be additional costs. These discussions are based on very good work that is being taken forward by the HSE. It will be easier to introduce these systems as budgets start to improve modestly, which is what all of Ireland hopes will happen. Some areas will flatline. Areas that have fallen behind will benefit from increases. It was extremely difficult at a time of declining budgets to introduce a new budget formula and move beyond past historic practice. We had to say to people in area X or area Y, "Everybody is losing and you will lose even more". Our work in this regard is a top priority.

I think we have covered the IT issues that were raised by Deputy McLellan. We are proceeding with the national child care information system. We wish to focus on areas that solely have a paper-based system at the moment.

With the exception of those services that have always been provided by Five Rivers, our out-of-hours services are not being outsourced. Five Rivers was given a contract to make sure children in section 12 emergency situations were no longer being left in hospitals or police cells. Its ability to act immediately was illustrated in a fairly recent case in Athlone, when a child was brought into care very quickly. Progress will be made with the out-of-hours service now that agreement has been reached with IMPACT. There will be rotas. We will expand the crisis information service to ensure a phone line is available. Eight contact points will be designated around the country. Advice and support for local staff and institutions will be available. We are now at the stage of seeking volunteers to get staff to identify themselves at a rate that is properly agreed with the unions. I will be happy to provide a further update as that is taken forward.