John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I will take the witnesses back to the beginning. I am finding it difficult to comprehend the explanations that are being given this morning, relative to what I perceive to be the reality.

This started in 2005 and I can go back prior to that because things had to be established before they started taking off. Stakeholders were consulted. There was preparation of a proposal for the Minister. This is all leading to policy, I know, but the fact is that it did not drop out of the sky in 2011. In preparing for the legislation, people were getting signals that there was going to be a huge change. It was obvious. In 2006 and 2007 there was a review of resource requirements and business processes through the joint-departmental system, the Irish Vocational Educational Association, IVEA, the steering group and so on. There were more consultations, partners and stakeholders were involved and I am sure alarm bells were ringing for lots of people, especially members of the VECs, that change was about to happen. Then we had the Student Support Bill in 2008 and, in 2009, the pilot migration of student grant payments to electronic funds transfer. In 2010 the decision was made to centralise the student grant administration. At that point, this was an operation being set about by the Department. What role had the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform in it at that stage?