Mr. Gary Doggett:

For the two years.

With regard to how the programme works, it is interesting that we recently had much more buy-in from the Probation Service. We have a serving member of the Probation Service on our board. She sat the course and was so impressed that she decided to join the board.

The programme started out mainly with referrals from Judge Kelly. The referrals would come on a person's first hearing. They then have to go back to the courts after they have completed the course. Early on we were very aware of the problem that some people may respond better than others while others might not respond well at all. We wanted to differentiate between people who worked hard for the course and those who were just in attendance because they had to do it. In consultation with the Trasna programme in Dublin, Mr. Paul Mooney kindly allowed us use its evaluation system. We use some of the categories they use, so we evaluate clients on their punctuality as a social skill. That is the number one requirement, because if they cannot turn up early or on time for the course, it is not a good sign. We also look at participation, because it is a peer learning environment, and we believe it is very important that everybody gets involved in the conversation. We understand that the group work theory and practice in the first course is very awkward for everybody, and we do not expect anybody to get involved the first time around, but we tease it out a little and give everybody an opportunity. These things are explained to everybody in that one-to-one meeting. We show them the marking sheet on which they are marked on their punctuality, their participation, their demeanour - it is clearly explained to them that they must come in with a positive attitude and not sit there texting or using their phones - and teamwork. Those are the four areas on which they are marked from 1 to 5. They are marked 1 if they arrive very late and 5 if they are camped outside the night before waiting for us to arrive. We do not expect that, but we want people to be aware that there is a system in place. We find this a great motivational tool as well because it helps us to keep things in order. We are very aware of the victims who have suffered loss through the actions of some of our clients. We do not want people to feel it is a get-out-of-jail-free card, a term we heard previously.

We want the wider community to be reassured that anybody doing our programme must earn their certificate. The other rules we have are all clearly explained at the outset. At the start, referrals mainly came from the judge. When people appeared in court for the first time, it was suggested that they do the programme. We would then evaluate the client and the results would be sent on to the judge and possibly to the solicitors, if requested. After that, the person would go to court. That is outside our remit. Our remit is to deliver a course and whatever happens on the basis of our evaluations has nothing to do with us. We have found recently that we are getting more and more referrals from solicitors, which was surprising. We gave a presentation to the Bar Association a year or two ago and we have had massive buy-in from solicitors, which has been great. Much more recently, we have found that we are getting more and more clients coming to us who are looking to get their licence back. This has been brilliant, because with the initial shock of losing one's licence, a person might be inclined not to behave in that way again, but two or three years down the line attitudes may have softened somewhat. It is a good time to get people to change their attitudes before they get behind the wheel of a car again.

We have never seen ourselves as a replacement for the current system. We consider ourselves to be a complementary asset. However, we understand the difficulties with the punitive system. If a person in Donegal is getting a ban for the same offence as someone in Dublin, it is a very different sentence, as there are no transport links in Donegal. That is what we are talking about as an escalation of offences. People may get behind the wheel again of necessity, although we do not condone that behaviour in any way.