Jillian van Turnhout (Independent) | Oireachtas source

The delegation is very welcome. As Deputy Ó Caoláin has said, today is the first step in us trying to scope and understand the funding arrangements. The more I look at sections 38 and 39 organisations the more questions I have. If I say something that is incorrect I expect the delegation will correct me.

There has been huge focus on the salaries of senior management but I am very concerned about the delivery of services and identifying same. How often does the HSE scope what services are needed?

My questions on section 38 are as follows. Given that staff are public servants, why does the HSE not deliver the services directly? Why do we use organisations and give them all the benefits yet the State has no control over how money is spent? Is there value for money given that the organisations have all the benefits of being a public employee yet are in a hybrid-type structure? Many of the listed organisations started as charitable entities and delivered services. The State then took on to fund the entities but the public still retains an historic picture of the organisations. I would like us to move towards a rights-based delivery rather than people almost feeling they need charity. It is the State who funds the services and not a charity, necessarily, but the perception remains that it is a charity.

I have questions on the company structure of section 38 and 39s. Is there a requirement on the type of company structure? Must they be a charity? Can they be any type of body or registered entity? How are renewals and re-tendering determined? The list of organisations seems to have remained relatively the same for years. Organisations have told me they must hold many discussions on service level agreements and different aspects. However, when I examined the figures on the list it looks as if it just ticks over year after year. I want to know about the re-evaluation piece too.

My next question is on section 38 and section 39 organisations. Do we know the percentage of funding that the HSE, other State agencies, Departments and the public provide to the organisations? If we had that information we would know more about these entities. Following my own research on the matter there is a great disparity in terms of funding for the organisations.

It was interesting to hear Ms McGuinness say that each section 39 organisation is requested to have due regard for overall Government pay policy in respect of the remuneration of their senior managers. I know what happened when cuts were imposed on some of the section 39 organisations. They ran into difficulty because they were expected to keep the salaries for their senior managers in line with Government pay policy but make cuts due to a cut in funding. The result was money was disproportionately spent on salaries and the money for services was greatly reduced. The salaries for senior managers of these organisations must very clearly be in line with Government pay policy. Why is that not the case for other staff salaries?

My final questions are on administration. Are these organisations funded on a multi-annual basis? Does the HSE fund them through a negotiated yearly contract? How does the HSE determine the amount of administration and staffing?