Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputies for their contribution on the issue, particular of An Post which is a very important issue. We seem to agree that An Post services are very important from an economic, commercial and social point of view. I am glad to hear Deputies support An Post. I am sure that An Post will appreciate their support and the fact that they see the social and commercial role that it plays.

The timescale for the publication of the Bill was raised by Deputy Naughten, and I think Deputy Ó Snodaigh referred to it on Second Stage. I want to explain one point. The timescales involved in progressing most social welfare and pension Bills are dictated by the need to implement various measures agreed in the annual budget, within the required times. The time available between the publication of Bill and progressing through the Oireachtas is, therefore, dictated by when the annual budget is announced, and when the various budgetary measures are to come into force. As has been said in recent years, these time pressures have been eased somewhat by bringing the budget day back to mid-October, at the latest, instead of early December. This allows for the social welfare budget Bill to be published earlier and more time for the Bill to be considered, by the Oireachtas, before the normal early January implementation dates for many of the measures.

The main reason this Bill needs to be enacted before the summer recess is in order to comply with the 5 August 2014 deadline for the transposition of Articles 7 and 8 of the EU Directive 2010/41. The directive provides equal treatment between men and women engaged in an activity in a self-employed capacity - and we have discussed this matter on a number of occasions at this committee - in so far as it relates to ensuring that the spouse or civil partner of a self-employed worker can benefit from social protection in accordance with national law. That means that we are introducing into law in Ireland, for the first time, the right of the spouse of a self-employed person or worker, who is involved in the business, to access social insurance. That means, as I said on Second Stage, that they can access a contributory pension. That is particularly important because many of the spouses are likely to be women. They can access maternity benefit. They can also access widows' or widowers' pensions. We reckon that there may be about 5,000 people who will avail of this provision, of which the majority will be women.

The date by which the Bill must be enacted is 5 August. I understand that people would like more time. However, implementing the directive will be of significant benefit to a lot of small businesses around the country where there is a couple working in the small business. I just wanted to make the point about the date of the deadline which faces this Bill.

With regard to section 3, I do not propose to accept amendments Nos. 8 and 9 and shall explain why. There may be a slight misunderstanding on the part of some of the Deputies. I share everybody's view, who has spoken, that An Post provides a valuable service and we want to see it retained.

I was delighted to sign a contract with An Post last December. The service is valued by our clients in social protection, communities and by people here in the Houses. The contract was awarded to An Post following a public procurement contract. Section 3 updates the legal framework behind the new contract. It strengthens the role that An Post plays as an integral part of a robust and a proactive payments regime. There is a legal reasoning behind it.

The aim of the draft legislation being proposed is to remove the specification of An Post from primary legislation and move to a more objective approach to reflect the reality of the contract in place. The position of An Post as a provider of cash payments is set out in enormous detail in the regulations, in the secondary legislation.

An Post is an independent contractor, subject to contractual responsibilities, rights and remedies, in the delivery of the cash services to the Department of Social Protection's social welfare clients. It delivers these services to a very high quality and to a very large number of our clients who are located up and down the country. They, in turn, are very supportive and appreciative of its service.

I understand the motive behind the amendments but the ones proposed by the Deputies could be viewed as seeking to ring-fence the role of An Post as the only possible payment service provider for the Department. This cannot be supported because that would be legally very unsafe and could be interpreted as being contrary to EU directives on fair competition, procurement and State aid. That is exactly the opposite, having listened to the discussion, of what the Deputies clearly desire.

The removal of the specification of An Post from the existing legislation does not interfere with the service. It does not diminish or jeopardise it. The contract, which I signed with the chief executive of An Post before Christmas, is now in place and will remain in place for up to six years. The services must then be re-advertised. It is open to any player in the market to enter a bid to deliver the services. These are the rules we must abide by and that is what the legislation must reflect. We cannot sanction any perception that An Post enjoys a legal status in primary legislation that could be viewed by others, who might contest An Post's winning the contract, as restrictive in so far as it relates to welfare payments. I understand and appreciate the motives of Deputies' comments but this is the legal advice available to us. As the legislation stands, it could be perceived that fees were not being charged for services to specific standards but, rather, that expenses are being paid in an agreement entered into by me, as Minister, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and An Post without public advertisement. This is contrary to what actually happened. This is what someone who wished to contest the winning of the contract by An Post could allege. Deputies have enough experience of situations like this arising with other contracts. This is not the reality and the revisions to the legislation are proposed to reflect this.

Protecting the integrity of expenditure is critical at Government and departmental level. The key is tackling fraud and abuse within the social welfare system. We must ensure the necessary legislation is in place to support An Post to carry out its duties in this regard, as agreed under the contract. The current amendments enhance our opportunities and allow for more stringent fraud and control measures to be carried out by An Post in conjunction with the Department. For example, the amendments provide An Post with the power to withhold payments to a client if it is not satisfied the person presenting has adequately authenticated his or her identity. They enable An Post to confiscate a public services card or social services card and surrender it in instances of fraud or where it considers the card is not being used lawfully. Everyone here, and Deputy Joan Collins more than most, has been in post office and has seen post office queues when people are collecting various payments. The role of An Post in respect of checking identities and verifying that payments are going to the right people is critical to deterring and detecting fraud but we must include it in legislation. It is a key service specified in the contract as part of the conditions for whoever wins the contract. We are updating the legislation to include the provision in the legislation. It was not done before and the informal arrangement was that An Post might check. People familiar with post offices know this but we are including it in the contract as a requirement.

As Minister, preventing and detecting fraud and error is critical to saving money that people pay in PAYE and PRSI for a good social welfare service. People want to ensure the payments go to the right people and we have had conversations about this before. It is now reflected in the legislation. The legislation also strengthens the capacity for an exchange of information between the Department and An Post, which is critical, and such exchanges will be invaluable to officers in my Department when cases are being prepared for prosecution. This is important work in terms of the relationship with the post office and the requirements in the contract for this work to be undertaken. It is important that, if these situations arise, it is possible for An Post to communicate with the Department properly and legally on such matters. The proposals provide a new resilience and robustness to underpin the cash payment services on a statutory basis. I assure Deputies Ó Snodaigh and O'Dea and others that the proposals strengthen the position of An Post. The contract gives some certainty to An Post in the delivery of cash services, enabling it to build from a firm foundation for potential future contracts. Every Member in the room knows that, under EU procurement laws, it must be put out a contract. This provides a firm base and a resilience that An Post will be in position to continue to bid should it wish, as I assume it will, to bid for future contracts.

No other Department has given any certainty on the future of the An Post business model but, because it is so important to me as Minister and to the Department as a provider of services, we have thoughtfully looked at how to ensure that, legally, different elements of the service are underpinned, subject to having robust legislation and regulations that meet EU procurement laws. The position of An Post as a provider of cash payments is set out in detailed regulations in secondary legislation. Amendments to these regulations in respect of payment service providers will continue to recognise and reflect the position of An Post as a provider of cash payments.

A number of Deputies referred to An Post becoming involved in the provision of other services. In recent legislation I updated the household budgeting regulations to enhance that service if customers of An Post wish to avail of it. I have taken a number of steps as Minister and dealt with the EU requirements. Deputy Willie O'Dea is familiar with the case taken by another party, which contested the An Post position. The ruling of the EU court was to make a requirement for a competition. An Post entered the competition and won the contract for two years, renewable for a further four years, and I hope that with this legislation underpinning the services it provides it will continue to be interested in providing important business services for the Department.

My Department is a significant customer of An Post's services, in terms of both mail delivery and the contract for the delivery of social welfare payments in cash. To give the Deputies an indication of the scale and volume of the business, during 2013 An Post handled 14 million mail items to a value of €11.5 million for us, as well as some 43.7 million over-the-counter cash payment transactions with a value of over €57 million. It is a very important segment of the services we provide to the customers and clients of the Department and is extremely significant business for An Post.