Dr. Padraig Walsh:

With regard to the comment by Senator Healy Eames about the level 8 programmes, we would not expect, and we would be concerned if there was, a difference in the quality of people emerging as graduates of programmes at the same level. The Senator referred to mechanical engineering in particular. On a worldwide basis one probably would not see much difference in the academic programmes people would develop within mechanical engineering. It is also a professionally regulated programme, including at European level. The experiences students might have in different institutions could be different.

The point Professor Norton made about the ability of a technological university to offer programmes across the range is one of the big distinctions. One could have a comprehensive offering across the range between level 6 and level 10. Currently it is quite difficult to see institutions doing that. The university sector will largely offer between levels 8 and 10. Although there are level 10 awards in a number of the institutes of technology, they tend to be to relatively small numbers of students. One of the things that has come out of this Bill in the criteria and in the national strategy is that there is no movement from an institute of technology in its current form to a technological university without amalgamation. The concept of critical mass is part of the national strategy and the national landscape. There is a recognition that if one wishes to offer that, there is a protection in size. There are levels below which, particularly in technological areas, it is very difficult to offer the necessary comprehensiveness. That is one of the things that is permitted within this.

As well as this Bill, we are doing all this in the context of a changing national landscape. The issue of regional clusters is very important. There is a comprehensive examination of that and the ability to move from further education into higher education. One of the dangers people have mentioned here is the difficulty of people coming in unprepared or unsure. Broadening entry might facilitate a greater chance for people not to make errors in their choice as they go in. One of the advantages of having comprehensive offerings across levels 6 to 10, and this might be where the Senator might see a difference in the mechanical engineering graduate, is that it is likely that in a traditional university that person will have come through from leaving certificate in school, whereas in the current institute of technology sector, and it would still be permitted within the technological university, there is the ladder effect of certain people coming in at level 6 and progressing to levels 7 and 8, and people who either do not progress or do not need to progress can find satisfying careers without having made the mistake of coming in on a level 8 programme and then dropping out.

With regard to the drop-out rates, a significant number of people, perhaps 10%, drop out in the sector. I work a great deal in the European area and there are many countries that are extremely envious of the persistence and completion rates we have in Ireland. We have a very high completion rate, which is testimony to the high quality offering from our higher education institutions.