John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I raised this with Mr. Cathal Magee when he was before us at a meeting of the committee. I asked him specifically about section 38 agencies, how they were accountable and if there was an audit in respect of their compliance in terms of the understanding they have with the HSE regarding the funds of which they are in receipt. In honesty, only after that, did the HSE get serious about it. Mr. O'Brien is quoting letters from 2011. What happened after 2009? What happened in 2010? I am not forgiving the CRC. I am just saying that if €0.6 billion of taxpayers' money is going into section 38 agencies, the HSE had a very flawed way of overseeing that or auditing that money and that is why the CRC is here today. I would also put it to Mr. O'Brien that the HSE did not flex its muscle as a provider of those funds in ensuring that they complied with everything that was going on. That is what I take from this correspondence. The HSE is as guilty as the CRC in terms of what is going on here and in respect of the management of the funds.