Dr. Robbie McVeigh:

That would be a process for the court. In the Kiely case I mentioned, the defence in trying to claim there was no discrimination first claimed that Travellers were not protected under the Race Relations Act, which is why the case was heard, involving my evidence. That was its first defence. It then moved on to claim that these people were not Travellers at all. All of us would recognise them as Travellers - they were Travellers. If that had ever come before the court, I think there is no question they would have been recognised. Certainly once the defence lost the point that Travellers were not protected, it then went on to claim these people were not really Travellers. That is a matter for every court to decide. It is not just true of Travellers. Somebody might present as Jewish, Irish or whatever to a court and claim to have been discriminated against on that basis and the court would then consider the substance of whether he or she belonged to that group - it would be a matter for the court. Here it is about the principle of whether Irish Travellers as a group qualify for protection under the legislation.

I do not know how much time the Chairman wants to spend on it. It is interesting to hear what Travellers would say. The Traveller witnesses would be much more interesting and embedded in terms of their sense of how they know somebody is a Traveller or not a Traveller. In the days when bars displayed "No Travellers" signs, the barperson was able to make that distinction and other people are well able to make that distinction also. There is a complex process where it is not based on skin colour but the sense of ethnic difference and identifying somebody ethnically is quite a subtle one although it is also very real. One knows from accent, from a particular way someone presents oneself, where somebody comes from and from their names. Put all those things in a bundle and at that point the court would be able to decide whether a person was a Traveller, but we all do it all the time anyway. It is not an exact science, but it is a normal part of establishing ethnic boundaries that happens all the time. It is not particular to Travellers - it is there with Irish people too.