Ms Pauline McCabe:

-----and nothing I have said today would contradict that. I have explained this. I have felt very frustrated, as have others, at the time it has taken to get the prison reform programme off the ground. I have explained that some very important developments are now happening, but if they are to deliver the change required, other very important developments must happen with urgency and taken forward in a joined-up way. The current efforts are very much targeted at doing that. Anne Owens made the point that there is no point in cherry-picking. She said what we need is root and branch reform and a joined-up approach to all of this process.

In terms of the specifics the Senator raised when she spoke to the prisoners, I come back to the fact that by far my biggest client group would be the republican prisoners. What I do each and every time, and sometimes I get multiple complaints about the same topic but sometimes I get individual ones, is carry out an investigation and, on the basis of facts and evidence, make the most helpful and constructive recommendations possible. It is very important for me to investigate properly and gather the evidence regarding what the prison service is saying and what the republican prisoners are saying. We deal in evidence and I find that, generally, in terms of moving forward, that is the most constructive approach to adopt.

I have no doubt that when somebody comes into prison, comments are made, and in many instances we find there is substance to those comments, but I cannot comment in general because what I do when I get a complaint is carry out the kind of investigation I have described. When I find things I believe are wrong, in breach of prison rules or in breach of human rights, I do not hesitate to go straight to the people who need to do something about addressing them.

On the issue of Marian Price, I have said that I do not have a complaint and anyway I could not talk about an individual case. I would respectfully point out, however, that we have to make a distinction in terms of those who believe there is a question around whether she should be in prison. My interest as prison ombudsman is the way we are looking after and responding to the needs of whoever is in the prison. That is the part of the equation with which I am concerned. I believe the other questions are for others.

Let me outline the two steps that I believe are most important in making a difference. First, the strands of work that have not been done quickly enough to ensure adequate purposeful activity in prison for everybody need to be fast-tracked urgently. Everything I have seen in the past five years persuades me that locking up prisoners, be they ill, addicted, lonely, angry or frustrated, for long periods does nothing to achieve rehabilitation. It does nothing to protect vulnerable prisoners. For those with an interest in drugs, it does nothing but encourage them to go looking for them. It stops them from sleeping at night, which increasingly incentivises them to try to obtain medicine and drugs. I met the change team yesterday and note it is trying very hard to address these issues. The reports that we and others produce indicate progress is much too slow, but it would be unfair if I did not say that fairly strenuous efforts are now being made to take action on the back of the reports.

The second step concerns management capacity and capability. We do have some good governors but the prison service has not addressed adequately the need to build a critical mass of managers and supervisors who are truly pulling in the direction in which we are trying to travel. There are a great many people in the Northern Ireland Prison Service who have known no other world. In any change programme, it is vital that there be staff with different ideas and experiences who can come into the mix and have an influence. To date, the change programme has not provided for that adequately. As I have said to all the parties, the Minister, the prison service and the trust, dealing with this issue should be accorded very high priority. Steps are now being taken to achieve this but it is a quite difficult process. There is much red tape and bureaucracy associated with what one is allowed to do in Northern Ireland. This sometimes undermines very important steps that should be taken.