Mr. P. J. Stone:

Yes. I thank the Chairman for giving us the opportunity for coming here today to address him and the committee.

This is the first opportunity we have been given to address the issue in a public forum. Much of the debate and discussion in respect of allowances has been conducted in an atmosphere of hysteria. One matter it is important to point out in respect of the 11,100 members that I represent is that the allowances applicable to those known as front-line responders, the young men and women of the Garda Síochána who have to go to every call, amounts to approximately three in all: rent allowance, boot allowance and uniform maintenance allowance. The notion that members of the Garda Síochána are in receipt of some 101 allowances is a misnomer.

The question of the way the allowances are paid should be addressed in the context of the real meaning of what is an allowance. For instance, when one talks about the earnings of members of the Garda Síochána in respect of overtime, that should be clear and distinct.

Equally, when one talks about earnings in respect of the payments for unsocial hours working, that should be clear and distinct. To bundle that into some sort of notion of allowances puts a skew on the public purse in a way that I do not think gives a true picture or accurate reflection of what is required in terms of the policing of this State. It must be remembered that when everybody else is curled up at night in their beds and comfortable, members of the Garda Síochána continue to provide a service 24 hours a day, 365 days of the year. Nobody with any sense of moral right would begrudge those members the entitlement to be paid, as is paid right across the public and private sector, commensurate wages in respect of what should be known as a shift allowance. That is the direction in which we should be going and they are the areas that need to be addressed in the context of putting this right once and for all.

Equally in respect of the number of allowances which have been bandied about both in the public media and elsewhere, in reality the number of allowances which can be reflected accurately which could be taken as the amount that are in usage, in my view, is about 34. They are paid for very specific reasons and they are paid for the purpose of ensuring continuity of service so that members of the Garda Síochána of my rank are able to do the job they are targeted and charged with by the Garda Commissioner.

There is one thing I would like to say to the committee and it is very important because it is lost sight of in respect of the force. The majority of gardaí will retire as gardaí. Some 80% of my members who joined the Garda Síochána will retire as gardaí. There is no facility within the Garda Síochána for grading or grade structures as apply elsewhere. It applies in European police forces where they have different grades and different structures. That would have dealt with the issue of why people are paid a particular amount of money for taking on the responsibility of a particular job, but what it would have meant in the Garda Síochána is that one would have had different pay levels for different members of the force. That might not necessarily have been a bad thing, but this is the issue in respect of where we are from the point of view of the public perception of the way allowances are paid.

In the context of the negotiations we have engaged in, we have always stayed within the industrial relations mechanisms available to us, which have served the State well - the conciliation and arbitration machinery. While I might not be particularly in favour of the way it has operated throughout the Garda Síochána in my service, I still have to acknowledge that it is a forum where we can go and make our case. I know that when we have argued at that forum in respect of issues pertaining to our conditions of employment, it was always people from the Department of Justice and Equality and the Department of Finance present who ensured - to quote a Secretary General of the Department - that we pulled the ladder up after us so as to ensure that nobody else could effectively follow and pursue some claims that were agreed for gardaí because of the unique nature of policing. These things must be borne in mind in the context of now looking at whether something is justified. While I respect, Chairman, that you and your committee are not doing that, it is important in the context of any discussion that is taking place that we do not open up another forum for negotiations because it is my contention that we have proved the point in respect of the entitlement of some of these allowances and we have shown quite clearly and illustrated that, in the norm, these allowances are much cheaper than that which relates to some of our European counterparts.

I might make a simple case on that. A lot of outsourcing has happened with European police forces and in any analysis of that outsourcing, one will find that it actually cost more than it costs in Ireland in terms of the service we provide. It has already been related by the Commissioner that we are a unitary police force. We do everything from the point of view of investigation of traffic accidents to the security of the State. In other jurisdictions some of those issues are handled by MI5, M16, etc., but we take on board every aspect and facet of policing and we do it with a proud tradition and with a degree of service that is second to none.

It is important in the context of a debate on gardaí and their pay and remuneration that we clearly understand that some of the issues pertaining to pay and allowances are historical, outside our control and are matters which, in the context of any important review, could be addressed in a way that would not cause this type of concern into the future. I certainly would be anxious to participate in that type of discussion and I look forward to the forum the Commissioner has alluded to being set up so that we can then make our business case in respect of the matters that are now before the committee.

It is also important to say that there is a great deal of frustration among young gardaí, particularly those with about eight or nine years' service, who hear again through the media that the average pay they receive is in the region of €53,000. I have a payslip here that reflects the pay of about 80% of the members I represent and it can be sent to the Chairman, if that is what he requires. The pay of a member of the Garda Síochána - it can be clearly shown - is €46,631 for a member with nine years' service - it is not €53,480. They get very annoyed and aggrieved when this kind of wage average is put out in the public arena.

I know the Chairman and the committee have a very serious task. I know they are charged with looking after the public purse strings and reporting back to Government and making recommendations. I sincerely hope, once they have had the opportunity to talk to us - to talk to our members, if necessary, beyond this forum - that their understanding will be much more and that they will have a greater degree of acceptance of the necessity for the continuation of the arrangements, perhaps in a different guise, as important for the proper perception and right of the Irish people who are paying our wages.