Seanad debates
Wednesday, 14 February 2024
Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters
Pension Provisions
10:30 am
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I wish the Minister of State "good morning" and welcome him to the House. I appreciate Deputy Ossian Smyth coming here to take time to listen to this extremely important matter with respect to public service pensions.
I can say since 1995 that the messing and changes being made to public service pensions have rendered the public service the least attractive job in the country but, today, I want to specifically speak about those who are in uniform and who generally are part of an accelerated pension scheme. The post-1995 and pre-2013 pension is the one I am concerned about today. The pension causes significant problems for members of An Garda Síochána, the Defence Forces, prison officers, firefighters, etc. In all, there are 37,000 members who are affected by this.
Let us look at the case of a garda who is retiring on a post-1995 full pension having paid all of his or her contributions. He or she will receive a pension from two sources. Approximately two thirds of the pension is paid directly into his or her bank account from the Justice budget while the remaining third comes by way of an indirect payment, known as then supplementary pension, and it is paid from the Department of Social Protection. They both amount to roughly 50% or a specific number of eightieths of the person's service.
When the post-1995 members reach the State retirement age, the supplementary portion of the pension is withdrawn and the member moves on to the contributory old age pension. The overall income is not in any way affected. However, a post-1995 member of An Garda Síochána with full contribution paid has no option but to sign on at the Department of Social Protection for jobseeker's benefit in order to receive his or her supplementary pension. This is the only way they can receive that supplementary payment.
In signing on at the Department of Social Protection, this involves the members making a false declaration and that false declaration is something the Department of public expenditure and reform has been aware of for some time. The retired garda in question must sign on stating he or she is ready and willing to take on work when, in fact, he or she is not. If members refuse to sign this declaration because they feel that it is a breach of the ethics that they have upheld all their lives, the Department of Social Protection issues a letter stating that they have no entitlement to jobseeker's benefit as they are unable for work. When the member submits a letter requesting supplementary pension, it is refused on the grounds that it can only be granted by way of jobseeker's benefit. The retired member either loses out on the supplementary or lies and states that he or she is available for work. This has happened. Retired members are left with no choice after 40 years' service - 40 years of upholding the truth and upholding ethics. They must sign a false declaration, which is in blatant breach of everything they have held close to themselves in their lives.
There is no reason a retired member could not be given an option on retirement. If they do not wish to engage in work after retirement, they should simply have their supplementary pension paid directly into their bank account alongside their Garda pension. Those who wish to continue working after retirement - that is a different ball game - can take on work and they can deal with the Department of Social Protection, for example, if they are engaged in casual work.
In particular, retired members of the Garda Síochána, under the present system, have to stand in a post office queue. I ask the Minister of State to imagine the following: a garda, after 40 years' service, standing in a post queue waiting to sign on. In my opinion, it is a highly insulting and most degrading part of this entire fiasco. They are not jobseekers. They are proud retired members of An Garda Síochána, soldiers, firefighters and prison officers.
I am aware of one garda who was shot in the line of duty and, today, he stands in a dole queue in order to get his jobseeker's benefit. I know of another retired member in Cork who stood in a dole queue in a post office and, at the same time, in the queue there were three people on whom this garda had recently served warrants.
I wonder how the Department of public expenditure and reform cannot immediately see the moral injustice of this.
Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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The Senator's time is up.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I am coming to an end now.
It is utterly astounding that this would happen. This has been under review for quite some time. We really need an answer straight away.
Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I thank Senator Craughwell for bringing this important matter to the House.
As the Senator will be aware, the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, has overall policy responsibility in relation to public service occupational pension schemes payable to retired public servants.
For all new entrants to the public service on or after 6 April 1995, the date of the introduction of full social insurance for public servants who now pay Class A PRSI, and before 1 January 2013, the date of the introduction of the single public service pensions scheme, their pension is integrated.An integrated pension scheme considers the State pension as part of the total pension package promised to employees on retirement. One reason for this is that both employers and employees make PRSI contributions, and these in turn entitle scheme members to social insurance benefits, including the State contributory pension.
Integration is used as a means of taking into account the benefits payable under the social welfare system to calculate the following: the amount of pension payable from a pension scheme so the combined pension from both the State pension and occupational pension is at the level aimed at in the scheme's design; and the level of contributions payable by the employee towards the cost of their occupational pension so the contributions payable to an occupational pension scheme reflect the offset from scheme benefits to allow for the State pension. Typically, this is achieved by calculating pension benefits based on this lower "pensionable salary" at retirement. Therefore, the pension payment of a post-1995 public servant comprises three components: a public service occupational pension, payable by the public service employer; a social insurance benefit or benefits – State contributory pension, jobseeker's benefit, etc. – payable, subject to eligibility, by the Department of Social Protection; and, where the full rate of State contributory pension is not payable, a supplementary pension equivalent to a non-integrated pension, which is payable, subject to eligibility, by the public service employer.
Where a public servant does not qualify for the State contributory pension or qualifies for a social insurance benefit at less than the value of the State contributory pension, he or she may be entitled to an occupational supplementary pension, subject to eligibility criteria. In addition, the grant of an occupational supplementary pension has three conditions: the retired public servant must not be in paid employment; the retired public servant, due to no fault of their own, fails to qualify for social insurance benefit or benefits or qualifies for a benefit at less than the value of the State contributory pension; and the retired public servant must have reached the minimum pension age or retired on grounds of ill health.
The second condition is important to ensure no duplication of payments from public funds. To verify this condition, prior to payment of the occupational supplementary pension, a retired public servant must engage with the Department of Social Protection and obtain proof that they have exhausted any relevant benefits for which they may be eligible under the social insurance system. A significant number of occupational pension schemes, both private and public sector, make an allowance for the State pension when providing a pension.
The Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform is fully aware that the requirement to engage with the Department of Social Protection as part of the process for qualifying for the payment of an occupational supplementary pension is presenting difficulties for individuals and at Intreo offices. My officials are in the process of reviewing the processes involved and have been engaging with key stakeholders with a view to establishing if a more efficient and streamlined approach is possible.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State for that comprehensive reply. Whether we like it or not, the bucking about that has taken place with State pensions has been an issue. I will be submitting another Commencement matter on the post-2013 pension, in respect of which I hear from public servants in all aspects of public life that they no longer want to work in the public service. The single pension Act is detrimental to them. However, that is for another day.
I know the Minister of State and know he does not want former members of the Garda standing out in a dole queue in Dún Laoghaire, lying that they are available for work when they are not. We should kick in the supplementary element straightaway. If somebody says they do not want to work, they should not have to go to the Department of Social Protection. The third element of the pension should kick in straightaway and the individual should be given the full supplementary pension without having to go to the Department of Social Welfare.
The Minister of State said this morning that his officials are examining this matter. Could we have an answer as quickly as possible? What is happening is grossly unfair to members who have served this country loyally in uniform down through the years. I am aware that the Minister of State inherited this problem. The guys who brought it in all walked away with their full public service pensions, having decimated the rest of us in public service.
Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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Retired members of An Garda and the Defence Forces are entitled not just to respect from the State but also to great gratitude for what they have done, and they should always be treated with dignity in dealings with the State after they have served. The Minister, Deputy Donohoe, has acknowledged that there is a problem and that the interaction with the Department of Social Protection and attendance at Intreo offices are presenting difficulties. He is trying to find a way through that, so he acknowledges there is an issue. Even if the total amount of money stays the same one way or the other, it is a question of the manner in which people are treated. People's dignity should always be respected, particularly later in life. The contributions of members of the Garda or the Defence Forces, often in very dangerous circumstances, put them at risk and subject them to much abuse. At the end of your career, you should be treated with dignity. I absolutely respect that. There is a process under way. I believe the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, is a man of honour and is working on this. I will keep the Senator up to date and ask the Minister to keep him up to date on the progress on the work.