Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, to the House. It is always great to have the senior line Minister from the Department

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. I welcome the Minister and my friend. I thank him for taking direct responsibility for dealing with a Commencement matter; he is setting a good example there. On 4 January what I would regard as a mysterious consultation appeared on the website of the Department of agriculture. I felt it was artfully hidden under seven statutory notices on dog ear-cropping regulations. It was the only item not headlined at the top of the page. It seemed as though people were not meant to notice it.

That consultation being announced is on a hot topic in the animal welfare world, the proposed banning of e-collars, the training of dogs with electronic collars. The primary use of those collars is to stop dogs attacking sheep, events which are terrifying for the sheep and highly disruptive. Anybody who knows sheep farmers or have had the experience of coming across sheep savaged to death by stray dogs knows it does nobody any good at all. It is not great for the dogs either because when they are caught, they tend to get shot by farmers or put down by vets. This is happening almost daily the length and breadth of this island - Limerick, Offaly, Tipperary, Derry and Galway all had appalling attacks recently. I saw a representative of the IFA talking about the expected problems during the lambing season just starting.

Many breeds, ranging from greyhounds to German shepherds, have a strong predatory drive to chase after animals like sheep. Given that they can smell their prey vastly better than we can and they can run faster than us, there are two options if we are serious about stopping the appalling epidemic of attacks. We could keep dogs permanently on leads. That is easier said than done with big dogs especially when their owners are becoming frail. It is also no life for a dog to be kept permanently on a lead. That leads us to the need to train dogs to avoid their normal predatory targets. Electronic collar training is one form. It gets the dog to permanently associate a startle with its predatory target. It is a Pavlovian response and according to most scientific research, it is the most effective way.

My concern about this proposed consultation is that it seems to follow a direction of travel that it is proposed to have a ban on the use of these electronic collars. I am not talking, of course, about perimeter fencing or anti-bark; that does not seem to be covered. However, the fact that the consultation was so unnoticeable and a very fast three-week consultation period made me suspicious - not of the Minister, but of the Department.

I believe that these electronic collars used properly are humane, do not compromise animal welfare and are the most effective way to deal with the issue, and I believe the science backs that up. It is the most effective way of stopping sheep from getting savaged and dogs from getting shot.

I spoke to the deputy president of the Irish Natura and Hill Farmers Association recently. He described a horrible scenario where even friendly dogs off-lead thinking that they are playing can chase sheep and terrify the poor creatures. There was a story about sheep that were cowering on a rock in the coastal area and eventually jumped to their deaths in their terror. Those who claim that the banning of such e-collars is about animal welfare need to think twice. The welfare of the animals that need to be saved from predatory dogs is one thing. The welfare of the dogs that end up getting shot or are kept chained up is another argument.

The alternative approach to training dogs proposed by some is to use reward-only training which uses biscuits and praise to induce better behaviour from the dog. That might sound nice in theory but it does not work in practice. Wales for example banned e-collars in 2010. Insurance data showed that there are four times more dog attacks on livestock in Wales than in comparable parts of the UK and three times more dogs being shot as a result. I think it is a no-brainer.

First, I ask the Minister to extend this consultation period which is due to end this Friday. Second, I ask him to ensure that there is an evidence-based approach to this issue and that there is proper consultation with the scientific community, farmers, dog owners and all other interested and informed parties.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator Mullen for submitting the Commencement matter this morning. I have no problem extending the date. We want to receive submissions on the matter and we want to be open. It is not particularly time-sensitive but is something we want to conclude in a timely fashion. I will ask the officials to ensure it is widely advertised. I certainly want people to be aware of it and today's debate will help ensure people are aware of it. I will give extra time and ensure it is prominently highlighted. We want to ensure people get the opportunity to participate in this and give their views on this important issue.

The consultation relates to the use of electronic shock collars for the purpose of training. It does not relate to enclosing animals in a garden or anti-bark measures. The consultation on this will be important. The Senator spoke about research that indicated that electronic shock collars are an effective way of training. I have no doubt that they are. If we were to put a collar on a person and shock them every time we wanted to deliver a message, it would be a pretty effective way of getting their attention and getting a result, but it would be very cruel.If you are to put a collar on a dog and shock it every time you want to get its attention or get a desired outcome, it might be effective but it is cruel too.

Regarding the consultation, we will get everybody’s views on this and consult broadly. I want to be clear that we are not talking about boundaries around gardens whereby it keeps a dog or animal safe and the animal stays away from it or in anti-bark cases with animals living in a community, rather, it is related to a shock collar for the purposes of training. That is what the consultation is about.

Under the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013, a person is prohibited from causing unnecessary pain or suffering or endangering the health and welfare of any animal. The Act also provides that a person having possession of an animal must ensure that the animal is kept in a manner that safeguards its health and welfare. All legislation under the remit of my Department is kept under constant review, including legislation to ensure the health and welfare of canines.

We have seen in recent times significant changes at European level in respect of remotely controlled electronic shock collars in dogs and cats. We have seen them banned in a number of countries, including, for example, the Netherlands, Austria, German and Wales, while proposed bans in France and England are currently undergoing the relevant legislative processes and considerations. We have also recently seen that the Scottish Government published guidance advising against the use of these collars. In addition, the European Commission has recently published a draft proposal for a regulation on the welfare of dogs and cats and their traceability that includes a provision that would prohibit using these collars to expose dogs and cats to an electric current in pet stores, shelters and breeding establishments within the EU.

Everybody is encouraged to contribute to the consultation. The email address for submissions is animalwelfare@agriculture.gov.ie. The deadline was to be 26 January but I will extend it by two or three weeks. I will talk to the team. We want people to engage and give their views on this. I urge those with an interest in this to take part in the consultation, and myself as Minister, working with my team, will fully reflect on those for the way forward.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I thank the Minister for his response, and the deadline extension is very welcome. I am a dog owner. I have no vested interest because I have a loveable but cowardly collie who does not need any such collar for training.

However, as to the question of whether it is a shock, scientists say that this is more like a pulse. I think the Minister is conceding the principle if he is not proposing to ban the perimeter fence restriction, which is the same level of minor shock of approximately 5 mJ. It is surely the case then that there cannot be an argument for calling this a shock. As I said, I am quoting the University of Lincoln, which describes it as a pulse, stimulus or startle. It also does not have to be continuous. In fact, the dog learns very quickly. Let us remember that we are talking about saving animals’ lives and protecting animal welfare and, therefore, the balance of compassion actually lies on allowing this very low pulse, which is something like the pulse of a bicycle lamp, to be used in training. Calling it a shock, I suspect, is somewhat propagandistic. The Minister is conceding the principle. I got stung many a time by an electric fence at home. There is 3,000 times less of a startle involved in this perimeter fencing, the banning of which is not being proposed. If it is the very same startle that is involved in the context of reputable dog trainers using it, I do not see what the argument can be.

In any event, let the science speak. The Minister is doing so and taking an important first step in extending the consultation period. I also ask that whatever the consultation shows, the Department makes sure that it collates all the scientific evidence. In New Zealand, for example, the Department of Conservation requires the use of these e-collars in training animals. Why? To protect kiwis from being attacked. In Wales there have been three times more dogs killed and four times more attacks since they banned it, compared with areas in the UK. Therefore, there has to be careful thinking about where the compassion and animal welfare lies on this issue.

I thank the Minister for the commitment to extend the consultation period.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We have a real issue with dog worrying and sheep kills. However, in those cases, it is irresponsible and reckless behaviour by owners who are not keeping track of where their dogs are and their dogs are escaping and killing sheep. The owners normally are not there with a remote control to call them back; the dogs are normally causing slaughter. Therefore, the idea that the collar is being used in those cases, where reckless people are not looking after their dog-----

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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The remote control is not to call them back; rather it is to prevent them from going near sheep in the first place.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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That is a perimeter around a garden.

This is an important consultation. I do not think it is the way to train dogs. I spent much of my youth training dogs and sheepdogs for local farmers. Anybody who has to use one of these is not a good trainer.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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That is a big statement.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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That is not how you train dogs.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Vets will not agree with the Minister.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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That is not how you train dogs. There is a purpose and use for them regarding keeping dogs safe no more than I would stay from an electric fence as you, an animal or a dog would. That is boundary fence.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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It is the same startle.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The case where somebody has a remote control and is shocking an animal with a collar is a different kettle of fish.

The public consultation is timely. Let us get people’s views in. I will provide the space and time for that to happen and we will then reflect on it.