Pauline O'Reilly (Green Party)
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The Minister of State is very welcome. I am raising the issue of the citizens' assembly on education this morning. I am failing in my efforts to find a date for this citizens' assembly.That is why I, unfortunately, have had to call the Minister of State to the Seanad. Under this Government, a number of successful citizens’ assemblies have been held. I am passionate about the process. For that reason, we sought to include a citizens’ assembly on education in the programme for Government. It is the final citizens’ assembly in the programme. I say “final”, but it did not have to be the last one. A decision was made somewhere along the line that it would be, though.

I am anxious. With the Citizens’ Assembly on Biodiversity Loss, we knew that we would be facing into a citizens’ assembly on drugs directly afterwards. That assembly concluded its hearings in October. We are two months on and there are still zero updates on a citizens’ assembly on education.

As the Minister of State knows, I was the Vice-Chair of the Joint Committee on Gender Equality, which examined the recommendations of the Citizens’ Assembly on Gender Equality. We made our recommendations, following which there will be a referendum in March. I am also on the Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action, which has held hearings on the biodiversity citizens’ assembly. We are actually due to launch our report on that matter on the plinth at 11 a.m. A key part of the biodiversity citizens’ assembly was a children and youth assembly. Young people appeared before our committee and a member of the Department of Education was in the Public Gallery observing how to engage with young people in a citizens’ assembly-type forum.

I know that the work is under way. I simply want an update on it and a date. I want to know that young people will be involved in the citizens’ assembly, preferably in the same room as the adults, as they have so much experience to lend. I would also like an update on the expert body that is considering the terms of reference. This citizens’ assembly should be as broad as possible to start. That is the way the gender equality assembly was organised. Out of that, we had recommendations that took people by surprise. The deliberative process of a citizens’ assembly allowed people to think about what really mattered to people living in Ireland. That is how we should run the education assembly. My background is in alternative forms of education, having been chair of Home Education Network Ireland, one of the founders of the Steiner school in Galway and chair of that school’s board. We need to be innovative in terms of education.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I have been asked by the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, to address this matter on her behalf and to update the House on the Department of Education's position as regards the citizens’ assembly on education.

The programme for Government committed to establishing four citizens’ assemblies on the topics of biodiversity loss, the type of directly elected mayor and local government structures best suited to Dublin, matters relating to drugs use and the future of education. Three of these citizens’ assemblies have now been held. The citizens' assemblies on local government in Dublin and biodiversity loss have concluded their work and reports and recommendations have been submitted to the Oireachtas in line with their terms of reference. The Citizens’ Assembly on Drugs Use recently held its final meeting and its final report is scheduled to be published in due course.

A further citizens’ assembly on the future of education, ensuring that the voices of young people and those being educated are central, is committed to in the programme for Government. It will be a matter for the Oireachtas to agree the timeline and terms of reference for that citizens’ assembly. Citizens’ assemblies operate independently of the Government, with secretariat support provided by the Department of the Taoiseach. To date, the Department of Education has not received confirmation from the Department of the Taoiseach that a decision about the establishment of, or timeline for, a citizens’ assembly on the future of education has been made. However, to help ensure that the Department of Education is prepared for any announcement or decision regarding that assembly, officials have engaged in ongoing contact with the Department of the Taoiseach and ongoing discussion with key stakeholders across school communities on the programme for Government commitment, and will continue to do so.

The commitment in the programme for Government states that the voices of young people and those being educated will be central to the assembly. The impact that children and young people have on shaping their own learning experiences is a focus of the work of the Department of Education. The meaningful participation of children and young people in the process is strongly supported. The potential of a citizens' assembly on the future of education to enhance the ongoing consultative work of the Department of Education and aid future development and planning work is also recognised. Further to any Government decision and resolutions of the Dáil and Seanad regarding the citizens’ assembly, Department of Education officials will provide appropriate information and support as may be requested by the assembly. The views of parents, teachers, school leaders and all those in school communities who help shape our education system will also continue to be carefully listened to.

The commitment in the programme for Government to establish a citizens’ assembly on the future of education is welcome. It is understood that the establishment of this assembly will be the subject of a Government decision and resolutions of the Dáil and Seanad at the appropriate time.

Pauline O'Reilly (Green Party)
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With due respect to the Minister of State, when I last raised a Commencement matter, it related to his Department, yet it was the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, who took it. Today, I am raising an education matter and the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, is taking it. Neither situation is desirable.

It sounds like the Minister of State’s response was written by departmental officials and the Minister for Education has not had sight of it. It effectively says that the issue has nothing to do with the Department of Education and that there needs to be a Government resolution. The Minister for Education is one of 15 Ministers who sits at the Cabinet and makes the decisions. The response I was seeking was from her, not departmental officials. In this response, she is effectively a mouthpiece for them.

The response started by saying that a resolution was a matter for the Oireachtas. It ended by saying that it was a matter for the Government, that is, the Cabinet. If it is a matter for the Oireachtas, then I, as a Member of the Oireachtas, am saying that I want this citizens’ assembly to start immediately in January. I know that will not happen, though, because it is the Minister for Education who is a member of the Cabinet and who makes a decision on when the assembly will be held.

I want the Minister for Education to give a proper response. I want the Department of the Taoiseach to give a proper response. It is two months since the Citizens’ Assembly on Drugs Use. While the biodiversity assembly was ongoing, we knew when the drugs assembly would start. Something political is delaying this assembly. Young people are approaching me.

I understand the frustration of departmental officials on this matter, as I know they are working on it, but what I have received today is not a response about progress at all.

I thank the Acting Chair for his leniency.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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Not at all.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I understand the Senator’s frustration. The Government has set up and run three citizens’ assemblies, so the process is understood and not forgotten. I was involved in getting the Citizens’ Assembly on Drugs Use up and running, so I understand that it involves the relevant Department putting together proposals and sending them to the Department of the Taoiseach. Preparatory work has to be done by both Departments before a Government decision is made. Once that decision is made, it needs to be brought to the Oireachtas, so the Oireachtas is not the first step in the process at all.

In the case of the Citizens’ Assembly on Drugs Use, the Department of Health put together its proposals and sent them to the Department of the Taoiseach. That makes sense, as the Senator can agree. At first, the idea was for the Department of the Taoiseach to run the assembly, but it explained to the Department of Health that the latter would need to make proposals. That is the process.

I will discuss this matter directly with the Minister, Deputy Foley, when I see her next. We are working together on the schools solar panel project, which will provide free solar panels to every school in Ireland. It will be a wonderful and successful project. The next time I speak to her about it, which I am sure will be shortly, I will ask her how we can progress the citizens’ assembly on the future of education.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator for raising an important issue. Education is important for our country and our young people in terms of the economy and their personal development. A citizens’ assembly in that regard is most desirable. I wish the Senator and her family a happy Christmas.

I thank the Minister of State for his time this morning. I know he is busy trying to get things wrapped up before Christmas.

Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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It is an honour to be here.

Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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The Seanad appreciates the Minister of State’s time and we wish him and his family a happy Christmas as well.