Seanad debates
Thursday, 14 December 2023
Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters
Health Service Executive
9:30 am
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. The HSE boasts on its website that it is "the largest property owner in the State, so staying on top of all our facilities is key to the smooth functioning of our entire health system". Among the main strategic objectives of the HSE estates section are: "To provide appropriate facilities that serve and accommodate patients and staff in a relaxed, nurturing and caring environment and support the delivery of clinical services" and "To maximize the use of our buildings and land bank to optimise its value and to reduce costs." I appreciate that the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, is taking this on behalf of the Minister for Health but he has a responsibility for public procurement. The Minister of State will be very aware of how we measure these types of objectives. I have to bring up again in this House the issue about how HSE estates are managing two particular projects: one is the planned primary care centre for Gorey, County Wexford, and the other is the former HSE clinic at Camolin, County Wexford.
Let us deal with the primary care centre in the first instance. This was conceived more than a decade ago and planning permission was granted in August 2018. The Minister of State will be aware that permission lasts for five years and, therefore, it is not clear whether planning will continue.In the spring of 2021, when the HSE was contacted about this, it asserted that everything was on track. When I raised this issue in here again in May 2022, I was told that the project was still on track, but there were some car parking issues. In November 2022, I raised this issue again as a Commencement matter. I have to raise it as a Commencement matter because I cannot get answers from the HSE. Again, it said there were some car parking issues.
To try to move this on, at the beginning of November I arranged a meeting with the Minister, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, and the relevant officials. In fact, the Minister could not even believe it. He said that even the national children's hospital, with all its delays and overruns, has taken less time than this primary care centre in Gorey. However, we were assured at that meeting, which was more than a month ago, that decisions would be imminent with regard to this primary care centre. However, I must not know the meaning of "imminent", because since that time I have been unable to get answers from the HSE about what action would be taken.
The pressures in Gorey are particularly acute. In inter-census period from 2016 to 2022, the population of the town grew by 20% and the LEA has grown by 14%. You can, therefore, imagine the additional pressures that are being placed on health services in the area.
Let us look, then, at the other area I want to raise, which is the former HSE clinic in Camolin. I refer to this regarding how the HSE speaks about maximising the use of buildings. In 2014, the HSE closed this building. In 2018, it indicated that it was offering it for local use to various agencies and, if that failed, it would put it on the market. A number of locals even inquired about local use, but they failed to get an answer. That was in 2018. By May 2022, we were told this was still being done but that this time the title of the building was being checked. When I raised it as a Commencement matter in May 2022, the Minister of State at the time, Deputy Feighan, agreed that this was not acceptable, but said he had been informed that the process was almost complete. In November 2022, I raised this issue again in this House with the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton. I raised all the same issues again. However, in this case, she said that the building could be used to house Ukrainian families and that was being considered. The local community in Camolin welcomed this at a time when we were searching for accommodation. This was more than a year ago and yet nothing has happened.
We had the meeting with the Minister at the beginning of last month, on November 13. We were told by HSE estates at the meeting that action in Camolin would be taken within the following week. Yet, I have been unable to get any answers. Quite frankly, I am exasperated by this. The HSE has more than 400 properties right around the country that are being underutlised or derelict. The the HSE is failing to meet the objectives I set out earlier. The Minister of State is responsible for public procurement. Does he have confidence that HSE estates is able to effectively meet the objectives it has set out for itself?
Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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The Minister for Health has asked me to reply on his behalf and give an update to the House on this matter. As the Senator will be aware, a central objective of the programme for Government is to deliver increased levels of integrated healthcare with service delivery oriented towards general practice, primary care and community-based services to enable a home-first approach. Integral to this is the development of primary care centres across the country in our local communities. Significant progress has been made in the delivery of these primary care centres. Some 172 have now been opened and a further nine are in construction. These primary care centres offer a tangible example of the investment this Government is making in community-based healthcare infrastructure.
As the Senator may be aware, management and administrative grade staff in the Fórsa union in the HSE commenced industrial action on Friday, 6 October. Due to this industrial action, members in these grades are not engaging with political forums or processes. The Minister has been unable to receive an update on progress to date. The HSE confirmed that planning permission has been secured. However, as the Senator is aware, the new primary care centre has been delayed due to the proposals not meeting the HSE’s car parking requirements. The Minister is aware that the Senator has raised this issue numerous times. The Senator will be aware from previous updates on the Gorey primary care centre and from the recent meeting with the Minister and south east community healthcare that the HSE has been engaging in ongoing discussions with the developer regarding the provision of these additional car parking spaces. The HSE has advised that the developer has identified possible car parking options, and should these be deemed acceptable, the proposal will be resubmitted for board approval. Unfortunately, as noted, due to the ongoing industrial action, no further update is available at this time.
Regarding the HSE clinic building at Camolin, County Wexford, this building is owned freehold by the HSE and is currently vacant. Where property in HSE estates is identified as surplus to health requirements, these are available for disposal. Disposals of property by the HSE are conducted in accordance with the HSE’s property protocol. The HSE’s property protocol fully reflects the requirements of circulars by the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform on the disposal of surplus property, and the protocol satisfies the obligations of section 53 of Land Development Agency Act.
The Land Development Agency is advised prior to the disposal of any property of its availability and is invited to declare its interest in acquiring the property before it is put on the open market for sale. Should the Land Development Agency have no requirement for an offered property, the property is then offered via the State property register to other State entities and the local authority in the area. If there is no State stakeholder interest, the property may be disposed of on the open market.
The former healthcare centre building in Camolin, County Wexford, was identified as surplus to health requirements and made available for disposal in line with the HSE’s property protocol. I can confirm that the former healthcare centre at Camolin is progressing through the stages of the HSE property protocol. The building was offered to the LDA and included in the list of properties offered to Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage for potential use for housing. The local authority has expressed an interest in acquiring the property. The HSE will engage with the local authority in accordance with the HSE property protocol.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I am not quite sure how to respond to this. The only information that is new in this statement is the fact that the building is held freehold in Camolin. Finally we know that this title issue raised by the HSE was a nonsense. Next year, we will be celebrating the tenth anniversary of the failure of the HSE estates to do anything. The Minister of State's own Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform is cited here with regard to a circular. He can hardly be satisfied that this is how to effectively manage public expenditure.
There is this nonsense about the primary care centre because we are again getting the same answers around car parking. I appreciate the answer about the Fórsa trade union. Yet, there is nothing in this that I have not been told a year or 18 months ago, or that people were not told four years ago. I have no confidence in HSE estates to manage any of these properties.
I will make a more general point about the crisis we face with regard to accommodation on a whole range of levels. The HSE continues to have more than 400 buildings around the State that it has left either derelict or unused. The organisation is not fit for purpose.
Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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This building and project are exceptional. As the Senator knows, 172 primary healthcare centres have been set up by the HSE around the country. One of them is about to open in my constituency in Dún Laoghaire. Clearly, there has been a transformation in primary healthcare. Yet, this project is not going well and I think the Minister for Health and everybody involves accepts that fact.
The Senator refers to public procurement. Under European public procurement law, the acquisition of buildings is specifically excluded from procurement rules. However, there are, of course, protocols around acquiring and disposing property. The actions around that have to match the rules that are set forth in circulars by the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform. If the Senator wants to work with me to see if there has been some breach of those rules, I would be happy to look at that with him. That is from my point of view in the Department of public expenditure and reform. The Senator may want to report anything to me that he thinks is not right or he may feel something should be done differently.
There is an acknowledgement from the Minister for Health that this project has not gone well. He is not satisfied with the amount of information he has on it or the length of time it has taken to carry out. However, this is an exception in the HSE's property management. It is the largest property manager in the State. I know that because I am involved in upgrading its facilities for energy efficiency. It has the largest targets and the largest opportunities for improvement. If I can help the Senator in any way in the future, I ask him to please contact me directly. I will pass on his concerns to the Minister for Health.
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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I want to commend Senator Malcolm Byrne, who has constantly raised this issue in the House. I know how important it is to the people of Gorey and Camolin. I say "Well done" on that. I wish him and his family a very happy Christmas. Our final Commencement matter is from Senator Pauline O'Reilly.