Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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The Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, is very welcome to the House. This is a Private Members' motion in the name of the Seanad Independent Group. The combined speeches for the proposer and seconder shall not exceed 16 minutes. All other Senators shall have six minutes. The speaking list may vary depending on people's availability. It is a busy night so people may be in and out of the Chamber. I call Senator Keogan to move the motion.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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I move:

“That Seanad Éireann: acknowledges that:

- Ireland has a very weak system of local government in comparison to other European countries, according to a recent report carried out by the Council of Europe’s Congress of Local and Regional Authorities (CLRAE); Ireland’s system of local government is too limited and centralised;

- members of the Local Authorities Members Association (LAMA) have raised issues with the Seanad Public Consultation Committee about board memberships, reimbursements, and pension rights; many of these concerns came up during the Committee’s public hearings on the topic of The Future of Local Democracy;

- the Association of Irish Local Government (AILG) has been to the fore in highlighting the increased level of threats, harassment and abuse of councillors and the increasingly hostile environment that members of local authorities find themselves in when carrying out their duties;

- the AILG has consulted intensively with its members regarding the Planning and Development Bill 2023, and has identified a number of key provisions in the Bill that need to be changed; the Bill copper-fastens the centralised approach to planning and does not take account of local circumstances as identified by elected members: the Bill will ensure that planning authorities are no longer the prime mover in terms of spatial planning in this country, but are now bound by a strict straight-jacket of plans at national and at regional levels;

- the AILG has expressed concern over the following:

- the limited share of public affairs under local authorities’ own responsibility, including limited resources, functions and finance;

- the imbalance between elected members and the Chief Executive in local authorities without a directly elected mayor;

- that members of regional assemblies are indirectly elected and are not accountable to the citizens for the decisions they take in the assembly;

notes that:

- in the last 12 to 19 months alone, direct actions by the Government that weaken local government and local democracy, including direct attacks on the powers of local councillors have included the:

- removal of section 183 Reserved Function for disposals of council-owned land to the Land Development Agency;

- removal of Part 8 Planning Reserved Function (until December 2024) for councils’ own housing developments;

- removal of councillors from governing authorities of universities under the Higher Education Authority Act 2022;

- councillors will be removed from their role on Joint Policing Committees once they are replaced by Safety Partnerships when the Policing, Security and Community Safety Bill 2023 completes all stages in the Seanad;

calls on the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Government to:

- take into account the issues raised in relation to board memberships, reimbursements and pensions rights raised by LAMA and contributors to the public hearings of the Seanad Public Consultation Committee on the topic of The Future of Local Democracy; - ensure that the Planning and Development Bill 2023 has the democratic mandate of councillors before it is recognised in the new code of planning legislation;

- address the concerns raised by the AILG;

- undo the attacks on the powers of local councillors and ensure that members of local authorities will have equivalent power and representation on the new Safety Partnerships as they currently have on the Joint Policing Committees; and

- take on board the findings of the report carried out by CLRAE and devise a strategy to empower city and county councillors to grant them powers similar to those held by members of local government in other EU countries.”

The Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, is very welcome to the House to discuss this motion, which deals with the very foundation of our democracy as representatives of the people in local government. All of us in this House have a deep understanding of just how foundational local government is in the running of this country. Not a week goes by that local government issues are not raised by a Member of the Seanad or a local issue is not communicated to us from one of our city and county councillors. They are the first point of contact for the millions of people of this country whom we represent and they are the first line of defence in solving so many of the problems that threaten the social and civic life of our towns and areas.

In spite of this, Ireland's local government has been subjected to continuous and systemic disempowerment across multiple national governments. The representative bodies have been fighting tooth and nail against this steady erosion of the ability of councillors to effect the real change they are mandated by their electorate to bring about.

While I, along with Senators Craughwell and Boyhan, feel that our short and concise motion speaks for itself, I will elaborate on the three main pillars of the problem: first, the dominance of central government over local government; second, the dominance of the executive over elected members; and third, the complete lack of structural consultation by the Government with the representative bodies of our councils.

We have seen significant results arising out of co-operative engagement between the Minister of State's Department, the Association of Irish Local Government and the Local Authority Members Association. Great progress has been made on the issue of the elected members gratuity scheme and pay and non-pay supports for councillors as a result of consultation and co-operation. Of course, further consultation on and examination of the situation on an ongoing basis will always be necessary.The granting of a security allowance to councillors was a wise step in the right direction. As the political realm becomes even more tumultuous, the physical safety of elected members and their families is more important than ever. While the grant is only half that of what national politicians receive, it is certainly a step in the right direction and a welcome and important move.

There are many more areas where serious work needs to be examined or where I think a change in approach or policy is necessary from the Government. One of the elephants in the room is the Planning and Development Bill. Many of its provisions amount to huge blows to the democratic mandate of councillors when it comes to the new code of planning legislation. The Bill's copper-fastening of the centralised approach to planning does not take account of local circumstances and needs, as identified by elected members. Local authorities as planning authorities are no longer the prime movers in terms of spatial planning in this country but are now bound by a rigid straitjacket of plans at national and regional levels. The AILG has raised the point that the draft Bill proposes to extend the duration of the development plan to ten years from the existing six. Such a long duration will open up a democratic deficit whereby all the elected members of the planning authority may not be able to make an input to the spatial planning of their locality. Furthermore, the pace of change in modern life, under the headlines of climate, economy and technology, is too dynamic to allow such a lengthy interval between development plans. It is quite clear that the power being given to the Minister to issue binding national planning statements and directives will have the effect of excessively centralising planning policy. It would be much more appropriate for the Minister to consult the representatives bodies of the elected members of planning authorities in advance of issuing binding national statements.

Councillors represent citizens and communities. The limiting of judicial reviews, in some circumstances to incorporated bodies, harms the current ethos, thus denying individuals and community groups the opportunity to exercise their concerns about a particular development through the courts. This power should be granted to councillors in order to allow them to best represent the views of their constituents. These are just some of the steps that could be taken to empower local government.

As the motion states, the last year and a half has shown the pattern of systemic disempowerment by the Government. I refer to the removal of the section 183 reserved function for disposal of county council-owned land to the Land Development Agency. I also refer to the removal of the Part 8 planning reserved function, until December 2024, for councils' own housing developments; the removal of councillors from governing authorities of universities under the Higher Education Authority Act 2022 and; the planned removal of councillors from their role on joint policing committees once they are replaced by safety partnerships when the Policing, Security and Community Safety Bill 2023 completes all Stages in the Seanad. As Independents, we have tabled motions to stop that.

There is zero consultation on the Government's guidelines on traffic work procedures, as set out in section 38 of the Road Traffic Act 1994. This has had such far-reaching implications for the public and councillors. Could the Minister of State tell us what is the explanation for this? Why does the Government want so badly to hamstring its own county councillors? It seems like it is Government policy to steadily suck the power up through the ranks and consolidate it at the very top, in Cabinet, at the expense of all other elected representatives.

The request here today is very clear: we need communication and co-operation. We need a well balanced system of government that affords local government sufficient weight and appropriate powers and resources to carry out their duties in service of our democracy. The AILG and LAMA have been involved in round-table discussions with the Government. I have zero doubt that it would bring about huge benefits for everybody involved. I hope the Minister of State can accept this motion, which I commend to the House.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I formally second the motion. The Minister of State is very welcome to the House. I think this is my first time to address him since he was elevated as a Minister of State. I am very happy for him. He was a good local representative himself in his time.

We are talking about the erosion of power in local authorities and it is important that we put things in context at the very outset. I do not believe any government or Member of this House or the Lower House has any interest in disempowering local authorities, but what we do have is a Civil Service that is interested in disempowering local authorities and moving more and more decision-making into the Custom House and the like. It is no secret among my colleagues here that the Council of Europe regards the local authority system in Ireland as one of the weakest in Europe right now. Our representative bodies are LAMA and the AILG. We are elected by county councillors and, as such, they are our constituency and we should be supporting them. Quite frankly, they are extremely concerned about the disempowerment of local authorities and the sidelining of the people on the ground who have the first point of contact with citizens within the areas where they live.

As a result of an invitation from the Leader of the House and the Leas-Chathaoirleach we had local authority members in here from the regions who all made their points very strongly. There are a number of serious areas that my colleague has mentioned. The Policing, Security and Community Safety Bill is before the House. I know that is not the area of responsibility of the Minister of State but I ask him to engage with the Minister on it. It is outrageous to think that the power of local authority members would be reduced within policing authorities. I know we are moving to a new structure but the real people we need are those who are on the ground, who know what is happening and the individuals in the areas around them. The Minister of State will recall himself how the local authority played a huge part in cleaning up Limerick back in the bad old days when we had some pretty tough people in the town. Limerick has turned out to be a fantastic place since. In fact, it should be a model for cities and counties around the country for how we can tackle crime. It was done by local authority members, supported by Members of this House. I know that because I was involved with them at the time. I know the work the Minister of State put in and the work put in by local authority members. By disempowering them, first and foremost, we now find - I believe this is the case in the political parties, and while I cannot be sure I am told anecdotally - that people no longer want to run for or be involved in local authorities because they see no benefit to it.

I remember in 2014 when I first came into this House and I took on the issue of councillors' pay, a former colleague told me that we do not do that on the floor of the House, we do it quietly in the corridors. We do do it on the floor of the House. We tackle the difficult issues on the floor of the House and we should never be afraid to do that. The Minister of State and I have known each other a long time and I have never known him to be afraid to take on difficult issues. We need to stop the rot. We need to get behind local authority members.

In a very short time, even if the Government lasts for 15 months from now, we will be going back out to local authority members. Those who want to run for the Dáil will be looking for local authority members to get behind them and to get canvasses going in the various districts. There are some great people out there who will break their necks to help get people elected. I will spend the 90 days after that travelling the country and meeting every county councillor in the country. I will be able to do it with my head held high because I have never been shy about coming forward on the issues that concern them. I accept that the accusation that I was never a member of a local authority can be put against me, but I think my record will stand for itself when the time comes.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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Hear, Hear.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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When we look at issues like security and the personal security of county councillors, I note that the amount of money for telephone and broadband has been reduced.Why, when I get an allowance to carry out parliamentary duties, is it called an allowance when it is a sum of money that is not subject to tax? When a county councillor gets an allowance, it is referred to as pay and it is liable to tax and insurance. In addition, we expect them to run their offices. The Minister of State and the Members of this House know the number of people who come up to us, as elected representatives, looking for us to support this or that charity. The money we give our county councillors is a pittance compared with the value they deliver in their communities.

Councillors have to fight hard to get security for their homes, particularly women. Politics in general is not woman friendly. I see the women in this House. The Minister who was in the House earlier had the courage to take maternity leave. Fair play to her, and I think she is the first in the country to do it. We should have a system in place where female members of local authorities who have had a child can watch from home and vote from home. That is what cherishing county councillors would be about. That is what giving them power would be about.

Councillors should be involved in planning. I wonder where we are going with respect to disempowerment in the context of planning.

I could spend what is left of my time slagging off colleagues and saying they are doing nothing for the people. I do not believe that anybody in this House is doing nothing for the people who elect them. They try their damnedest. However, we are caught in the sights of the bureaucrats who want to control everything. Then, when we go out to the council itself, we find that councillors in some councils - a very small few, I will agree - are facing up to the extremely powerful bureaucrats who do things their way. We have to get back to empowering our county councillors to make them feel valued and to make them know that they are running local democracy.

I have a system in my house. If someone calls to my door and complains about dustbins, roundabouts or whatever else, as I am a national politician, I cannot help them. I will give them a list of county councillors to whom they talk and who can help. That is the way it should be. I should not be stepping into the Dáil as that is not my business. It is not where I am. I am in the Seanad, and this is where I should be. We need to go back, recalibrate politics and give power to the people where they are and where they lie. Our job here is to scrutinise legislation and that is what we should be doing. We should not be meddling in the TDs' area and they should not be meddling in the area of county councillors.

I want to see our councillors cherished and empowered. I want to see us take steps to ensure that county councillors are not regarded as cannon fodder to be used at elections and nothing else. I have known the Minister of State for a long time. I am of the view that he will agree with me at the end of the day. I know he is sponsoring some very strong people in the upcoming local elections, some very good friends of mine, who I am sure will do extremely well when the time comes. I will leave it at that.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Before I proceed, I welcome from Dublin City Council, Councillor Dermot Lacey, who is no stranger to local government. I call Senator Fitzpatrick.

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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I, too, welcome my colleague from Dublin City Council, Councillor Dermot Lacey. It is the best part of 30 years that Councillor Lacey has given to local government, so we are humbled by his presence here today. I thank him for joining us for this very important discussion.

I thank the Independent Senators for putting this matter on the agenda and I thank the Minister of State for attending. Senator Craughwell is right that his colleagues on this side of the House are very exercised. We continuously exercise our powers when it comes to matters relating to local government. I am very proud to have been elected and re-elected to Dublin City Council. I do not think there is any greater privilege than to be elected by your local community to represent your local community and to champion your local community, to speak on their behalf and to have an opportunity on their behalf to have an input into decisions that are made that relate to their community and their daily lives.

It is a fact that our local government is in need of strengthening. It is a fact that it is in need of reform. It is a fact that we would all benefit if our local government was strengthened and if local authority members were empowered. I believe they are the public representatives who are closest to the people and closest and best positioned to strengthen our democracy.

We need to recognise that we live in a world - our world, a democratic world - that is under attack from autocratic powers. That is a real threat that is affecting all of our lives today. If we do not accept and recognise that fact and take action to address it, and face it down and tackle it, we will reap what we sow. If we want to be serious about it, we need to strengthen local democracy, and strengthening local democracy means empowering our local authority members - those who have a mandate from their local communities.

I am one of those local authority members. I do not have all the answers. I am not an expert in planning, financial management or an awful lot of things. What I am an expert in is listening to my community and hearing my community, and I have developed skills to advocate on their behalf. That is an incredibly powerful tool in our democracy but it is one that our current local government structures do not sufficiently value. That is just a fact. They do not value it sufficiently in terms of how we structure the individual local authority member’s role, resource it and value it.

Senator Craughwell talked about security. I have come from a meeting of the Irish Council for Civil Liberties, which talks about the attacks on democracy and the attacks on politicians. It also talks about the attacks on journalists, the attacks on NGOs and the attacks on gardaí. We live in a violent world. However, local electoral representatives work out of their homes; they work on the go. Dublin city councillors do not have an office to work out of. In the largest local authority in the country, the elected members do not have an office where they can securely invite a constituent in to meet them. Those are unacceptable working conditions for anybody. Good luck to those in the executive functions but they are operating in a completely different space to the elected members of Dublin City Council. It is not like they are operating in luxury but they do have some basic conditions like an office, security on the door and resources. Elected members of Dublin City Council are expected to put together a city development plan. Historically, those plans have covered periods of five years. We are talking about six, eight or ten years. It is a wonderful privilege to have an opportunity to have a say, but they are not given any resources to do it. They have no allowance to get expert advice and consultation or to do research. We are not setting them up to succeed. We are setting them up to take a beating. The imbalance between the powers of the elected representatives and the executive functions is wrong and it has to be corrected. I appeal to the Minister of State to correct them.

I appeal to him also to recognise the responsibility that the local authority members are taking on. Any time there is a crisis, like a flood or a fire in a community, or a pandemic, it is the local authority that responds. It is the elected members who advocate and try to direct the local authority on how best to respond. Those local authority members need to be supported to do that.

We will talk about the joint policing committees in terms of the policing Bill that is coming through the House. I want the Minister of State to know that for our elected members to be able to represent their communities, to ensure that the communities they are representing are provided with adequate policing and adequate safety, they need a forum at which they can hold those who are charged with delivering that safety to account. That is what the joint policing committees do. Four times a year, once a quarter, local authority members can meet with a Garda chief superintendent and the senior executive management from the local authority, and they can hold them to account for delivering safety for their communities.That is why it is critical, if we are moving to a community safety partnership model, that all local authority members be empowered to be members of the partnership along with their Oireachtas colleagues, that a local authority member be the chair of the forum, and that the forum meet four times per year in public with the chief superintendent and the senior executive manager of the local authority.

I am over time and appreciate the Acting Chairman’s indulgence. My colleagues will speak on this issue also. I thank the Minister of State for his time today.

John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State to the House. I commend our colleagues on introducing this motion because it gives us the opportunity to address local government. As someone who was in 2009, at the age of 21, elected to Waterford City Council, now Waterford City and County Council, I agree with Senator Fitzpatrick that it is an absolute honour to be a local authority member and be elected by a local community. I would like to think I have plenty of experience given that I served for 11 years before my election to this House, having held the positions of mayor, chairman of the regional authority, SPC chair and so on. Therefore, I have a breadth of knowledge of the sector, as other Members do. My reason for saying this is not to be self-congratulatory or anything like that but to say I understand the work done by councillors across the country day in, day out. Right across the country, they do not receive due recognition from the public or the media for their role and the amount of work that goes into the job. The role of councillor has expanded given the expansion of the number of meetings and the amount of engagement required. It is not fully understood by most.

Reference is made to the planning Bill in the motion. I am a member of the joint Oireachtas committee, as is the Acting Chairman. The Acting Chairman will recall the councillor organisations – LAMA and AILG – appearing before the Oireachtas committee to debate the expansion of the development plan process to a ten-year one. The feedback given to us on the day, notwithstanding subsequent correspondence, was that the organisations were in favour of the ten-year period but with a very significant and substantial review process put in place after year five. I look forward to teasing this out with the Minister of State during the course of the planning review. A councillor elected for only five years must be allowed to have the meaningful ability to feed into the process. I see the benefit of a ten-year horizon and the zoning of an appropriate quantum of land to allow housing to be developed. This was debated in the context of the discussion.

There are a few other points in the motion and these have been addressed by other Senators. With regard to Part 8, I did not see the necessity to tinker. I have always found the Part 8 process to work quite well. We have, of course, examples of where developments were blocked by some councillors in certain parts of the country; however, by and large, delays are not attributed to the Part 8 process. This has to be reviewed.

With regard to the community safety partnerships, Waterford is one of the pilot areas. Therefore, I would like to believe I have some first-hand feedback. Admittedly, there are fewer councillors involved in the community safety partnerships but there are far more organisations partaking in the process, including the HSE, because it involves a whole-of-community approach. I can see it from all perspectives. I understand the Bill will not preclude councillors from chairing the joint policing committees. That is a welcome move because the position of chair is so important in driving the whole agenda of community safety partnerships. Having served on the joint police committees and seen the operation of community safety partnerships, I certainly believe we can fuse both and come up with a workable model that will benefit the communities we all serve. That is the most important point.

Considerable work was done on remuneration by the Minister of State’s predecessor, Deputy Peter Burke. That was welcome. We had movement on class K PRSI, which was also welcome, and we had the maternity element. I am aware that much work has been done by the Minister of State, Deputy O’Donnell, on security, but I do not believe the security element goes far enough for anyone, including Senators, TDs and councillors. If there is a security review by the crime prevention officer in an area and he or she recommends X, Y and Z, it should be paid for no matter whether one is a Minister, TD, Senator or councillor. That is my firm position on the matter.

Could the Minister of State comment on the gratuity in his remarks? It was always the case that this was one fifth of the representational payment. Since the representational payment was increased because of the changes made by the former Minister of State, Deputy Burke, I understand that the direct link has not been reflected in the new rate. That is an anomaly that has to be addressed urgently.

Rebecca Moynihan (Labour)
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I thank the Independent Group for tabling this motion. We have very many large challenges in the next 30 to 50 years, including decarbonisation of our country. There are large challenges in the areas of climate; moving away from car allocation and towards more active transport; housing, including catching up on housing that has not been built over the past decade; large-scale developments and infrastructure such as wind farms; and planning. These are all areas where local democracy should have a key role.

Our system of governance, however, at a local level, a regional level and even a central government level, does not work. It leads to endless frustration and endless delay and no one agency or person taking responsibility. Most things have to go back and be assigned as the responsibility of another Government Department or a centralised public service. That is the nub of the issue. Democracy does not work because it is centralised not just within our democratic structures but also within our governmental structures by the permanent Civil Service and the Government. We inherited our system of local democracy from the British. We need to look at best practice as regards local and regional democracy around Europe rather than an old feudal system.

Even within councils, there is a move to centralise more power. Since I first became a councillor in 2009, when very scant powers were allocated to councillors, those powers have been rolled back. We need to make sure that decisions are made at a more local level. That also includes things like upskilling local councillors in our regional government system. I think people in Ireland would like to see that because when the citizens' assembly for Dublin sat down and looked at what the Dublin mayor should cover, its members essentially came up with the areas that would be a good basis for regional devolution. They said a Dublin mayor should have responsibility for housing, homelessness, community healthcare, transport, the environment and the emergency services. We are trying to get to grips with that on the housing committee because it is not specified, and often the Government does not have control over those services, but that is indicative of what people would like to see within their own control and within the control of local democracy.

I ask that a couple of things happen on disposal of this motion. The Planning and Development Bill is a very dense document; it is over 700 pages long. Some local authority members simply do not have the time or the resources to go through that Bill in detail, and it will have a significant impact on how they work. I ask that the Minister of State's Department roll out training for local councillors on the Bill and get feedback from them at this stage of it. I also ask that Government Senators support our amendments in the area of community safety partnerships because the joint committees on local policing do work. Not only do they work in terms of the meetings they have, but they build up essential contacts between local councillors and gardaí to be able to have off-the-record conversations. That is what will be impacted when we do not have as many councillors on those joint policing committees.

Finally, I wish to raise the issue of the lump-sum payment for people retiring from local authorities. To be fair, the Government delivered on a negotiation and a higher salary for local councillors, but if it were calculated in the same way the new pension arrangements for public servants were calculated, it should be much higher than it is. I ask the Minister of State to ask his Department not just to look at that but also to ask that it apply to people retiring before the 2024 election and not just the 2020 election.

Frances Black (Independent)
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I welcome Councillor Dermot Lacey to the Chamber. It is always good to see a councillor in the room. I am very aware of how hard councillors work. I thank Senators Boyhan, Keogan, Craughwell and McDowell for using their group's Private Members' time to bring forward this really important and timely motion. It has my full support, and I am grateful for the opportunity provided by it and by the work of the Seanad Public Consultation Committee, of which I am a part. This is about talking about the need to revitalise and empower our system of local democracy.

The report of the Council of Europe's Congress of Local and Regional Authorities should be a wake-up call for the Government. It lays out in great detail what councillors, their representative bodies, academics and trade unions have been saying for years, that is, that our local authorities are chronically disempowered and underfunded. There is absolutely no doubt about that. It undermines public confidence in local democracy and public service provision. It is vital that we generate real momentum to get the Government to deliver real reform in this area. I note that the AILG has called its campaign on this issue #ReadyforReform. That is a message we should all be able to get behind. Devoted people working under stressful and frustrating conditions because they care about representing their communities have been waiting for change for far too long. I have travelled the length and breadth of this country and I have never seen anything like the dedication that councillors give. It is a vocation, really, because it is not done for the pay. That is for sure.

The motion highlights an observation made by LAMA in its submission to the Seanad Public Consultation Committee that there is a certain irony in an Oireachtas committee talking about strengthening local democracy when successive governments have weakened and continue to weaken local authorities and councillors, stripping them of duties and powers. The policing Bill that was before the Chamber just before this debate is a prime example of that. Members of the Oireachtas, especially those representing Government parties, must reflect on the hypocrisy of that position and work for a course correction.

One of the things that comes up in the report and in the submissions from LAMA and the AILG is how councillors in Ireland have far more constituents than the EU average and, especially in rural areas, represent large geographic areas. That means that councillors often have a really large casework load from constituents whom they may have to travel to meet. That is a huge burden, as my colleague said earlier, especially given that councillors often have full-time jobs due to the low rate of pay they receive. In that sense, the abolition of town councils in 2014 was a regressive and unfortunate step.

Ahead of the next local elections, it is so important we all work to create a positive and productive political environment. That is especially important in the context of encouraging younger people, women, LGBT people and ethnic minorities to get involved in politics. We need to do more to make sure that politicians reflect the diversity of the populations they serve.Many organisations are doing brilliant work in this regard, including Women for Election, the Immigrant Council of Ireland and the AILG. The Government has also helped through the introduction of modest gender quotas and the provision of maternity leave for councillors. That is fantastic but the impact of this work will be hindered if reforms around the pay, safety and authority of councillors are not addressed.

I am glad the motion highlights the harassment and security threats that many councillors have to endure. It truly is despicable. Social media has created new methods of harassment. Councillors receive threats, abuse and even sexual harassment online. It is even more terrifying that this harassment is spilling over into real life. We have to highlight the alarming emergence of the far right and the anti-migrant protests over the past two years. They have been targeting accommodation for homeless people and refugees, as well as libraries. We all remember when they blocked access to this building. Councillors have also been targeted. A mob marched to the home of a councillor in Ballyfermot some months ago. Another councillor had a brick thrown through his window which narrowly missed a family member. It is truly awful. I express my solidarity with those councillors and their families, and anyone else who has endured such threats, violence and harassment. On 23 November we saw the kind of chaos that this divisiveness can create. We need to call it out. Earlier in my speech I spoke about how Members of the Oireachtas need to reflect on the role they may have played in disempowering councillors. In addition, all of us in this House need to reflect on our role in spreading fear, hatred and misinformation which puts people, including public representatives, at risk. That has to be called out as well.

I am delighted to support this motion. I look forward to working on this issue further with my colleagues in the Seanad Public Consultation Committee. We will be hearing from all the councillors representing communities all over the country. It is powerful to hear the work they are doing. We have much to learn from them. I hope this process will be a catalyst for real, lasting reform because there is no doubt that it is long overdue.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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We have had seven speakers so far. We have only three more indicating to speak on this debate, from a Chamber of 60 Senators. The next three people who have indicated to speak are Senator Cassells, Senator Ward and myself. I will step out of the Chair to speak. We have no other offers but they may come in. Some Senators are at meetings, including parliamentary party meetings, but it remains to be seen. The Minister of State will then have an opportunity to come in. I just want to give an indication. There are only three more speakers and the Minister of State may have to come in at any point. Senator Cassells has six minutes.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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I also welcome Councillor Dermot Lacey who I have always admired. I thank my County Meath colleague Senator Keogan and all of our colleagues for tabling this motion and having this important debate this evening. I have always been a great advocate for local government in this Chamber and elsewhere. It is a topic I am passionate about. I spent 17 years as a councillor. I was first elected when I was 21. I was Fianna Fáil's spokesperson on local government in the last Dáil. Currently I am the rapporteur of the Seanad Public Consultation Committee on the future of local government. The opening session of the committee, which was attended by the Acting Chairperson, Senator Boyhan, and many others, was hugely insightful. In the morning session we heard from representatives of the AILG, LAMA and the Northern Ireland Local Government Association, NILGA. One of the most stark statements made on the day was from Ms Alison Allen, who is the CEO of NILGA:

It has been a shock, as we have developed our relationships, to understand the limits on the political mandate for those in Ireland because local government and local democracy are one and the same in Northern Ireland and across the UK. All power is vested in the councillors. They are the council. All authority is devolved to the chief executives through a scheme of delegation ... The politicians are the decision-makers. It has been a real shock to learn of the situation here.

It was damning to hear the CEO of the NILGA come into this Chamber and give such an assessment of our democracy. The issue here is not whether councils in Ireland are doing a good job. I think they are doing a very good job. I am proud of the work of our councils, including Meath County Council, and their staff. I do not want to get on the bandwagon of kicking what are termed "unelected officials". I do not subscribe to that because they work damn hard on behalf of our citizens and they do a fine job. However, the issue is whether the job of the politician is simply one of representation or actually involves implementing local democracy. That issue kept coming up during our debates. Are we simply becoming a vehicle for going cap in hand to an official and saying "Please Sir"? The problem with that is that the public will lose faith in the system and think that their representatives cannot effect change. That is leading to an ever-increasing decline in the turnout at local elections. In the 25 years since I was first elected, I have seen an ever-increasing decline in voter turnout. I will mention a statistic that was cited during the debate that day: the highest turnout was in County Leitrim, at a little over 60%, but in parts of Dublin it was only 20%. That is damning.

One of the key topics raised by local public representatives at the committee was the elimination of town councils. The decision to take away local government at urban level was one of the most grotesque, barbarous acts of democracy ever. That point was echoed by Fine Gael councillors as well, in fairness to them. It was simply an atrocious act by the then Minister, Phil Hogan. The participation of the Labour Party was even more grotesque because that party is centred in urban Ireland. It backfired spectacularly because it took away a whole swarm of their councillors. There were 80 town councils in this country, with 700 representatives who had connections to their communities. They had dedicated budgets. In Navan we had a budget of more than €12 million for our own town. We had our own planning authority, separate from the county council. The average number of people per council in Ireland used to be 2,815. That figure, from 2015, was the highest in Europe, and the UK was second. After Phil Hogan's barbarous act, we went to 4,838 people per council, or nearly 5,000. France has one councillor for every 118 people. There are 36,500 councillors in France. What Phil Hogan did was shameful, and the Labour Party's support made it worse. I introduced a town council Bill in the last Dáil. We got it all the way to Committee Stage. In the last Dáil, Brendan Howlin had the neck, along with Willie Penrose, to come in and try to introduce a similar Bill. Good Jesus, I could not get over it. The pair of them had some neck to stand there, having got rid of town councils in the first place.

The proposal to provide for directly elected mayors is only window dressing because it does not involve proper executive power like that held by every other mayor across Europe. When we saw Sadiq Khan at the Covid-19 inquiries over the past couple of weeks, we realised that he has real powers in an emergency for the citizens of London. When those citizens look at their mayor, they see a clearly identifiable person who they can hold accountable. They know he has the power to protect them, to improve their lives and to be held accountable when he does wrong.

On a positive note, our councils are now doing work in significant spheres, such as enterprise, tourism, community and sport, in which they were not involved 25 years ago when I became a member of a local authority. They have diversified away from the simple focus on roads, water and planning. They are doing substantial work in other areas. Our councils are a credit to our local democracy; never let it be said that they are not. However, the question for us is whether we place the role of the public representative at the heart of local government.

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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Well said.

Barry Ward (Fine Gael)
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I am happy to speak on this topic. As somebody who spent 11 years in local government, many of them with the Acting Chairperson in the Blackrock ward on Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, I have a great deal of experience of the workings of local government, both good and bad. There is an important narrative to local government in Ireland, which is that over the past 25 years, successive Governments have sidelined local government.Notwithstanding Article 28A of the Constitution and the importance of local government within our constitutional and legal framework, for the past 25 years and certainly since the Planning and Development Act 2000, councillors – the elected people at local level – have been pushed to the side and relegated from being actual decision-makers at local level to being local ambassadors to the chief executive of the council. I agree that we have great officials and I am very proud of some of the work that was done in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown when I was a member of that council. There are some excellent people in our councils delivering excellent projects such as parks, libraries, cycling infrastructure, housing and all the other things councils do. However, it is being done by officials who will never knock on a citizen’s door and ask them what they think about something. That is not what officials do; it is done by councillors.

Councillors are the ones who go out and take the temperature of the population, talk to people and engage with the people they represent. Yet, their powers have been stripped away time and time again. As I said, they are now essentially people who represent not the views of people rather they represent views to unelected officials, that is, people who do not have to rely on the people’s opinions or satisfaction with what the council does to keep their jobs.

While we and all parties talk about subsidiarity, for example, at European level in particular, Ireland is all about decentralising decision-making, bringing it back to the local level and bringing it back to the national level. We in Ireland actually do the opposite. We centralise decision-making. We take powers away from our local authority members. Those councillors are the hardest working politicians in Ireland, particularly when we consider that they get shag-all resources – excuse me, I should not have said that. They get very little in the way of resources and they get no administrative support. We know how long it took to even change the pay regime for them. It took years and years of trying in order to change it to reflect the actual level of work they do. Quite in contrast with the supports given to Oireachtas Members and MEPs, councillors have none of that. They answer all of their emails themselves, they go to all of their meetings themselves, they take all of their notes themselves and they do all of their representations themselves. It is a huge administrative burden that is not reflected in the amount of money they are paid.

The worst thing about it is that when we do this and sideline local government, we are taking away the real value for money for the taxpayer. We have in Dublin, for example, 183 councillors. One of the things the Local Government Reform Act 2014 did was increase the number of councillors in the Dublin county councils from 28 to 40 and in Dublin City Council up to 63. That is not necessary. I was in Blackrock ward with Senator Boyhan and we went from four to six seats. I do not believe the people of Blackrock are better represented today than they were in 2013. I think they are well represented and we have some high-quality councillors and it reflects not in any way on them, but we did not need more councillors to do the work we did. It diluted the effect of those individual councillors.

The reality is that the taxpayer does not get good value for money when the quality local representatives they have do not have the power to make decisions. The answer you get back on that is that councillors decide the budget. Of course that is true, but is it really true when so much of the budget is decided before it ever gets to councillors? Regarding all of the streams that go through the corporate policy group, CPG, when councillors go tp a CPG meeting, the officials come and have it all planned out. The officials have access to all the information and the councillors do not. Again, this is not a criticism of officials. When a councillor goes into a CPG meeting and says they want to fund X project, the officials will say, “Fine. Show me where you will get the money. What column will you take it out of?” Councillors do not have sufficient information to make those decisions. The reality is that many of the councillors are part time and do not have the time to be delving through pages and pages of council accounts the way officials do. Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown had the lowest number of employees per population and had approximately 1,000 people working for the council. That is the infrastructure available to a county manager, chief executive or director of services compared with an individual councillor. It is neither equal nor reasonable. The reality is that it is unfair on the councillors involved but, more important, it is unfair on the people they represent. The people who spend time making a representation and expressing a view to their councillor do not even know that councillor is unlikely to be able to achieve that if it is opposed by an official, and that is not a reasonable circumstance. Unfortunately, successive Governments, with most parties in these Houses, have spent 25 years stripping those powers away from councillors.

The following is an issue I have raised with the Minister of State before. When the Local Government Reform Act came in in 2014, it removed the town councils and replaced them with municipal districts. In Dublin, except for Balbriggan, we did not have town councils, so there are no municipal districts in Dublin. There are also no municipal districts in Galway City Council or Cork City Council. This means that decisions cannot be made by the area committees, which are the de factomunicipal districts. That means the decisions that are made really locally have to go back up the line and be made by the full council. It is a terrible waste of time every month that those decisions cannot be made at a much more local level, practising the principle of subsidiarity.

I have been contacted by councillors this week about policing committees. There is a suggestion now that rather than having councillors on those committees, we would have people who are not elected on them. We either have a democracy at local level or we do not. There is absolutely no point in removing the councillors from that only to exclude them and replace them with people who do not have a mandate and do not have any representative function.

If you want to be a member of a State board and you are a member of a local authority, you are essentially barred from doing that unless there is no pay attached to it. If you are a member of a county council, the Government no longer wants you to play your part. Notwithstanding that there are highly-qualified people around the country who could do it, they are de facto excluded from doing it. It is wrong, it does not make sense, it does not represent good value for Irish people and Irish taxpayers and it sidelines local government in a way that is totally contrary to the policy that we expound at a European level. It is time we changed it.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I thank everyone who has partaken in this debate. I welcome Councillor Dermot Lacey from Dublin City Council. Might I say, he is not the only one following this debate. I just got a text in stating “Senator Cassells is on fire but he is right”. I do not want to embarrass him but I think he is right too. I think he is on fire and passionate about local government. I commend him on that.

I welcome the Minister of State. He has been a reforming Minister of State and perhaps one of the best I have come across in the seven years I have been here.

I was elected to Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council in the 90s. It was the best day and still the highlight of my political career. If I were to lose my seat in the Seanad tomorrow, I would certainly contest the next local elections. That is my commitment and my interest. I have a fire in my belly about local government. I believe in it and I like it. What greater honour than to be elected by a community that accepts you and you are part of? Circumstances bring us to different places and different communities. I had the pleasure of landing in Dún Laoghaire at a few days old - my origins are from Kildare – and I took to that place. I love it. It is my home town and I represent it. As I said, I would be knocking on doors again. It would still be the life in me yet. I want to see local government thrive and I want the powers devolved.

We can talk about devolving powers to local government but let us remember, in the past seven years that I have been here, there have been many opportunities where Senators had to stand shoulder to shoulder and support local authority members and they did not do it. There were many motions indeed and I will share it. I keep an excel spreadsheet in my office of every vote taken here. I think that is important. We need to remind ourselves about our renewed vigour and renewed commitment to local government. We have many opportunities. The bar is put in front of us and we do not always deliver.

I am privileged because I am not whipped as a member of a political party. I am an Independent Senator, as I was for some time. I think the Progressive Democrats left me; I did not leave them. They were gone by the time my term ran out. I wish to give a plug for Independent politics. It is very important and I hope to see a large range of Independent candidates across the 31 local authorities. There is a place for them, as there is a place for parties. We are not whipped; we are independent. I can stand here and advocate for what I believe in. I know the Minister of State does too, but he is in a party and there is a collective. I accept how the system works.

In short, it is important we support our councillors. The remuneration is not satisfactory and we need to look at that again. It should be four times one's finishing salary. I think there are issues about that. This week alone, ten councillors have contacted me, seven of whom are women, who are not running for local elections. Some of them only had one term. There is high pressure, social media and there are huge demands. As one person put it to me, “How could I do it? It is a full-time job for part-time pay." That is as they see it. I refer to the harassment, hassle and pressures they are under. They are internally having struggles with management structures. They are not supported, so there is a real issue.

Let us not fool ourselves. We only have local administration. We do not have local government in this country and we need to aim at that. Successive Governments for years have centralised local government. They have taken powers away from local authorities. I have touched on the gratuity that needs to be addressed.One of the things that motivated Senators Keogan, Craughwell and I is that Senator Keogan and I were summoned to a meeting of Local Authorities Members Association, LAMA, that was held in the Fianna Fáil Party room. It was the first time I was ever there. Party members reminded me that I could not be too critical of Fianna Fáil because I was in their rooms, so I was quite tough with them. I told them if they wanted to cross the corridor to my room we could discuss business. They lectured us to a great extent. I told them they did not need to lecture me, that I stand over my record on local government and councillors. However, to be fair to them, they were representing their organisation, which is LAMA. They talked about the gratuity, not being valued or respected, powers being eroded and especially the Part 8s in the proposal. These are matters the Government presided over and the Minister of State's party has been in government for a long time. They were frustrated. We had a robust exchange and I gave them a commitment to do something about it. For the executives of LAMA listening tonight I say we gave a commitment, we are here tonight, it is being debated in the Seanad and I look forward to talking to them again tonight or tomorrow to ask them what they thought of the deliberations.

I thank the Association of Irish Local Government, AILG, which has also done amazing work in advocating for local authorities and needs to be supported. Members will recall when we had MARA, there was a proposal to put councillors on it, but it was not supported by Members of this House. They will recall a proposal from councillors to increase the number of councillors in the Dublin issues around the mayor and the citizens' assembly. There was another vote about that which was not supported. Dublin councillors had asked for more representation. We do not all get it right, but I am making the point that we have had opportunities.

As Senator Fitzpatrick said, councillors say they are not lawyers, planners or financial experts, so they need independent legal advice, independent planning advice and independent financial advice. That should be given to them. The gratuity is an improvement, but I am now seriously worried. I believe that after Christmas we will have any number up to 200 or 300 councillors saying they will not run again. Local democracy is under pressure. We need to steady the nerves, say we stand shoulder to shoulder with our city and county councillors, support the AILG and LAMA to do their work and start looking at a roadmap for how we will devolve powers from central government to local government. That is what this motion seeks to do and I know we will have cross party support in this House and that the Minister of State will also support those objectives at the end of the day.

Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister of State and Councillor Dermot Lacey.

I thank the Minister of State for facilitating a meeting at my request on behalf of the Fianna Fáil group and Fine Gael group on issues that arose from a meeting with LAMA a few weeks ago. I was heartened by that meeting because I got the feeling the Minister of State understands what we talked about. He is a former local councillor as I am. It means a lot that he was engaged and I said so to him on the day. I was heartened by that. We discussed a number of issues that were mentioned this afternoon from the gratuity to the length of service and a few other issues. The Minister of State is working on and quietly progressing all of them. I look forward to developments in them in the not too distant future.

Someone commented that we are at a crossroads in the question of whether we have democracy at local level. I do not like to name anyone, but the former Minister, Deputy Phil Hogan, took a hatchet to local government unfortunately when he did away with town councils. As a former town council member, I think that was a crazy decision. I understand it is in the programme for Government to return the town councils. Senator Cassells has done a lot of work on that. We should certainly look at it for towns with a population of 8,000 to 10,000.

Since I became a Senator, terms and conditions for councillors have been an issue and continue to be an issue today, but I am heartened. I like to give credit where it is due and I give it to the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, and the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Burke, who were receptive to the call from all political voices on the need to move the issue of councillors' terms and conditions forward. I thank both gentlemen because we were banging on that door for a long time without getting any response so I am glad we see some movement on it. The old phrase "a lot done, more to do" springs to mind, because we have more to do on councillors' terms and conditions and a number of other issues.

Members quoted a few examples this afternoon where the role of the councillor is being diminished. In many ways, there are parallels on this campus where the role of the Oireachtas Member is also being diminished. We are at a crossroads in many ways and bit by bit, chip by chip, the powers of local authority members are being diluted. The most recent example is the Policing, Security and Community Safety Bill, which proposes to do away with joint policing committees, JPCs, and more or less do away with the involvement of local authority members in them. The Fianna Fáil group has met the Minister about that and voiced our strong opposition to what is being proposed in that Bill. I understand we have until next Monday to table amendments. I hope common sense will prevail and that the Minister will listen to sincere, sensible proposals coming forward about local authority members.

The only people in the new body the Minister is talking about setting up who will be accountable are local authority members. No other individual around that table from a State agency is accountable, but local authority members have to put themselves before the people every five years. They have to answer for their performance in the previous five years. No official has to do that. Politicians - and we in these Houses have ourselves to blame - have ceded too much power to unelected officials. We are paying a price for that today. However, it is not the end of the road and we have an opportunity to push back. The most vivid example of this is the Policing, Security and Community Safety Bill, which is before us this week. I ask all Members from all parties and none to reflect on that. Let this be a mark on the road where we as elected representatives push back. We are elected by the people on behalf of the people to work for the people. Let the people have their voice.

I commend my colleagues on the Independent benches on bringing forward this motion. We speak collectively with one voice on this. I salute the representative associations, LAMA and AILG for the tireless work they do on behalf of elected members and every local authority member, whether they are a member of a party or not, for the role they do. They are certainly not in it for the money. In the job they do - and I speak as someone who was an elected councillor only seven or eight years ago - the workload has increased significantly, so much so that it is a full time job for a part-time salary. We are either serious about local government or not. I feel we are knocking on an open door when we knock on the Minister of State's door because he understands local government. I sincerely hope we will see great strides of progress during his reign and a repositioning of local democracy and its importance.

Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator Boyhan and the members of the group for tabling this motion. The debate is ongoing. The Council of Europe's report is stark warning of where we are, but we did not need that report to tell that local democracy is under threat in Ireland. In such a situation, democracy itself is under threat because we all see that fewer people are putting themselves forward, powers are being stripped away and, as the report from the Council of Europe said, we have a most centralised form of local government. As colleagues said, we have to make a decision about whether we want local democracy or administrative areas. At this moment, we have administrative areas where elections are held every five years but all the power rests with people who are not elected. The motion talks about the issue of JPCs being the next situation. In the current proposal, someone who is not elected will become the chair of JPCs or their new version.As colleagues are aware, Senator Boyhan is on the public consultation committee. The Chair is rapporteur for the report on the future of local democracy in Ireland which is looking not just at the problems but also at the solutions and what we need to do to roll back what has happened over the past 30 years.

Democracy is an experiment that is three generations old in this country. Ireland is one of fewer than ten countries to have been a continuous democracy for the past 100 years. The fact that people are not willing to put themselves forward for election will undermine this House and the Dáil in years to come because, as we know and as the Minister is aware, many Members of the Dáil start their political careers in local government. If people will not put themselves forward for local democracy, what will we do about our national Parliament in ten years' time? That is how serious the situation is. We need a rebalancing of powers and functions. As a Seanad, we are looking at that and will have further public consultations next year.

We need not just to identify the problems but also to recommend solutions and see what powers need to be rolled back, not just in theory. We need to ask the parliamentary drafts office to write the legislation. It is to be hoped that such legislation would be supported by all Members of the House. Following the public consultation committee, I hope political parties adopt the recommendations of Senator Cassells's report, supported by everybody, on the next general election. I hope the legislation proposed by the Seanad public consultation committee would be taken on board by everyone and we would reverse the trend. The direction of travel is wrong. Next week, we will see another step in the wrong direction.

The evaluation report for joint policing committees is with the officials, yet it has not been made available to the democratically elected Members of this House or the other House. If we are going to do a pilot, we should allow people to see what the evaluation looks like and then have a discussion. Senator Mary Fitzpatrick outlined previous discussions on pilots in her area, which did not work. Yet, that is what we are rolling out. We will have unelected people chairing those committees. Does anyone think that looks like progress in terms of transparency and democratic accountability in this country? It does not work.

Doing the same thing over and over again will simply repeat the failures of the past. More concerning for all of us is that fewer people would put themselves forward for election which would undermine democracy and transparency in this country. I thank Senator Boyhan for putting forward the motion. We will have an interesting week next week.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Fianna Fail)
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It is good to see my old sparring partner, Councillor Dermot Lacey, who is always an advocate for the importance of local government. I thank the Minister for being here. I know from being part of a delegation with him about two weeks ago that he is supportive of local government and councillors.

Councillors are the backbone of our democracy. They do untold work on many levels in all of their communities. A significant number of functions are carried out at local government level. Local authorities deliver over 1,100 services in communities around Ireland. That is quite incredible.

The basis of the Maastricht treaty was the principle of subsidiarity, namely that the decisions that would affect our citizens would be made as close as possible to the citizen. That meant our local councillors. At the time, we had town councillors. We had just devolved from having town commissions. Of course, there are also county councillors. Knowing the number of councillors I do and having been a member of three local authorities - I was a member of a town commission, a town council and a county council - I am very familiar with the work, dedication and commitment of our local authority memories. I see that first hand when dealing with councillors in Kildare and others across the country.

At the same time, they have all of the accountability without having the budget or powers. Huge decisions need to be made at local authority level. In many instances, the executive makes the decisions. It is about time that we gave direct power back to those who are elected to represent the people where they live in their communities and whom they serve.

Along with many of my colleagues, I have spoken to councillors who have made the decision not to go forward for election again. I have also spoken to people who considered it, but when they see the level of work, time and commitment required they realise it is certainly not for the faint-hearted. While there was a time where people could balance a daytime job with the functions of councillors, including council meetings, because there could be an area meeting and full council meeting once a month along with extra meetings for development plans and budgets, that is not the case now. It is very difficult for people who want to commit to serving their community and give a voice to those that do not have one to be able to balance having a full-time job, possibly without flexibility, while also being a public representative. We have to make it worthwhile for those who may be willing to give up a full-time job.

The Minister has made a final decision on the revised gratuity scheme from June 2024, which I am pleased to hear. That is important. It was something that came up a number of times. Many people have given up their careers to be able to serve. This is public service at its very best. Even though there are times when being a public representative is difficult - we have all had experience of that, such as social media, bullying, intimidation, etc. – at the same time there is generally and genuinely a great respect and affection for those who are elected at local government level. We need to be able to support those who wish to put their names forward for and continue in an elected role.

I also want to remark on the introduction of maternity leave, which happened during this mandate. It was an important move. I am glad the Government is moving in the right direction on that. The security allowance is not a significant amount of money, but it would make a difference. If we as public representatives are entitled to receive it, then those serving in local government should also be entitled to it.

I had the opportunity to read the report of the Council of Europe, as a member of the Council and the Irish delegation. It was concerning. Liam Kenny brought it to my attention some months ago. There are many lessons in it for us. When we talk to other public representatives across Europe and see the level of authority and support they have, it is important that we try to equate, at an Irish level, with that.

While there is criticism in the report, the people who are serving as a local level are terrific. They work hard. We should consider bringing back town councils. Any town which had a town council, even with a small budget, saw the benefit of having it. I thank the Chair for giving me the opportunity to speak and my colleagues for bringing the motion forward.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chair. I am delighted to be here for this debate. I thank Senators Boyhan, Craughwell and Keogan for tabling the motion.I commend all Members in the House on their advocacy for both councils and local government. I acknowledge LAMA and the AILG for their advocacy. I have met with their representatives on many occasions. The work they do on behalf of their members is very important. I wish to inform Senators that the Government has agreed not to oppose this motion.

I propose to go through some general issues and then I will address all the queries raised by Members as much as I can. The motion references the Council of Europe’s Congress of Local and Regional Authorities, CLRAE, report and the application of the European charter. It would be remiss of me not to acknowledge Councillor Dermot Lacey, as everyone else has done. It is good to see him. We have dealt with him on the planning advisory forum. I attended the 45th session of the congress in Strasbourg on 25 October when the monitoring report was adopted. The defining recommendations helped to identify the areas in which we are achieving and lacking in our applications. The report's main findings included the observation that we have a centralised system of government, which many Members have commented on tonight. As a result, Irish local governments do not manage as great a share of public affairs or responsibility as maybe elsewhere in Europe. That was the view in the report.

In my address to the congress, I accepted that we have a relatively centralised system of government by comparison with other councils in European member states, but that it is an evolving process. That is the key point I want to make. While local authorities in Ireland may not have the same responsibility functions in health or education as other countries, functional areas currently under their responsibility include social housing and homelessness, land use and transport. I do not think it is fair to say councillors do not have powers because they do. The view expressed here tonight is that they should have more powers. They do phenomenal work.

The introduction of a directly elected mayor, beginning with Limerick City and County Council, will address a number of the recommendations made. I do not accept that it is window dressing. I am going through the report. Like everyone else here, I am a democrat. What was put to the people is in the Bill. It was put to the people that there would be a transfer of powers from the CEO to the mayor but certain roles, such as staffing, would remain with the CEO. That is for certainty for staff in the local authority as well. There must be practicalities here. It is balance. Individual matters come in, such as planning. The legislation will be reviewed in three years. The mayor will be responsible for bringing in the budget, which we spoke about. The mayor will now bring forward and interact with officials on the budget. It is a complete change. The mayor will bring forward development plans. Furthermore, we set up an implementation plan in the Bill I brought forward. We have for the first time given the mayor a statutory right to have access to a plenary session twice a year with Ministers. That is not at the behest of the Minister. I changed that. It is a plenary session where both the mayor and Government rank pari passufor meetings or further meetings at the behest of either party. I want to do this but it is all about balance.

I am also conscious that 52% of the people voted for it but 48% voted against it. It was not universal. The public themselves are sceptical. In both counties Waterford and Cork, it was voted down. We cannot live with an abstract theory on directly elected mayors. We have to look at the practicalities of how it will work. I set up an implementation plan whereby the mayor will be chairing a Project 2040 board with a statutory right to bring in all the authorities that are involved, including the CEO of Clare County Council. I brought in a simple measure whereby the mayor can bring all the stakeholders in Limerick together and has a statutory right to do so. These are far-reaching changes. I brought in that the mayor would specifically chair the transportation subcommittee within Project 2040.

Once again, however, it is hugely important that we get this right. If we look at the UK, Bristol and Liverpool have both reversed their decisions to have directly elected mayors. Why? Because the powers were too broad initially. I want to get to the same point as everyone else where we have devolved local government, but we must get it right. I am too practical for that. We have all been politicians for many years at local and national level. At times, I find there is too much talk in the abstract. We have to talk about how it will work in practice. I suggest that Members read the Bill again. It is a first step. Members should never forget that we are dealing with an electorate and we want the directly elected mayor system to work.

Points have been made about the Planning and Development Bill 2023. I will speak about the change in the timeframe where what was a six-year development plan has now gone to being a ten-year one with a five-year review. Members will have a large part to play. That will be a significant review. What is also being missed is that Members can bring forward variations to that plan at any stage. The national planning statements are being brought forward to provide consistency in terms of the interpretation of plans, even within local authorities. We want a system in which there is certainty in the planning system, clarity about what happens and consistency. Councillors have a key role to play there.

We intend that councillors will be consulted on the national planning statements. Obviously, that Bill will be coming forward in all Houses. It is in the Dáil at the moment and will then move to Committee Stage. It will likewise come to the Seanad. We very much value the input from councillors. The Part 8 process is time limited to the end of December in terms of developments getting under way before then under Part 8. This is not a long-term measure. This is a measure we are looking at and I take Senator Cummins's point in that regard. We are looking at ways to expedite the process, but it is time limited. The chief executive is required to bring it before the Members for their observations in whatever decision they make.

The Policing, Security and Community Safety Bill 2023 is obviously not within my remit but it is something on which I hear the views of Members. I do not think it has been reached today, but there is an amendment tabled to provide certainty. Amendment No. 84 proposes to insert the following:

Regulations under subsection (1)shall not, insofar as they make provision for the election of a chairperson and vice-chairperson of a safety partnership, make provision that precludes the election of members of local authorities as such a chairperson or vice-chairperson.

Members will obviously have their deliberations with the Minister for Justice, but that is in there.

This issue was not really specifically referenced but, obviously, I wanted to get clarity on the Higher Education Authority Act 2022. There is a view that the appointment of members to the board is now based on the competencies of employees to ensure good governance practice. It is important to state that councillors are not precluded from being appointed; far from it.

I will go through what has happened since July 2021. The representation allowance has increased to €28,000, which is an increase of more than €9,000. We brought in the maternity benefit. I brought in regulations in more recent times to ensure that if female councillors go on maternity leave and do not wish to take that length of time, they can continue as a councillor and bring in someone to work part-time with them. That is in place. Once again, for me, it is very simple. It is to give female councillors the choice and that is something I wanted to bring in.

There is a security allowance of €2,500.It is worth pointing out that councillors are currently allowed under the LRA allowance to claim for security. I did not touch that. I left that as it was. However, I brought in a sister scheme for Oireachtas Members. People cannot claim under both schemes. They can claim under the LRA and claim up to 100%. That is for expenses of €5,160 or €4,200 vouched. That is a choice, once again, for councillors.

Going through the issues that were raised, Senator Keogan made a couple of points. She said the Government should consult councillors on the national planning statements. Judicial review is limited. When it comes to one, it would be discussed in great depth. What the planning Bill is looking to do is streamline the planning process. Judicial review should be a measure of last resort. We want most planning applications to still be decided at local authority level, as they are. If they go to appeal, we put in time-limited, statutory deadline dates with An Bord Pleanála. If a case goes to judicial review, we want to ensure two things. First, if it is something that is going for planning permission, is appealed and granted by An Bord Pleanála, the time it is held in judicial review will be added on to the planning permission. Second, we are bringing in an environmental legal cost administrative support scheme to ensure people can take that. We have taken away the application for leave because this is all about a streamlined planning process and it is ultimately about getting houses built. That applies to large-scale projects as well.

I have dealt with the joint policing committees. We have dealt with Part 8. Reference was made to judicial review. I have dealt with the ten-year plan. Going to Senator Craughwell-----

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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It is section 38 of the Road Traffic Act. Is the Minister of State familiar with that?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I am. That is under a different Act so it would not apply. Is that the Department of Transport?

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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It is the Department of Transport but local authorities-----

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Through the Chair.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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Apologies.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I will inquire about that.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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There is no consultation.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Senator Craughwell made a point about broadband and expenses incurred. I am going to look at the LRA allowance specifically on that. I gave a commitment on that particular issue.

Senator Fitzpatrick made reference to the executive and a directly elected mayor. In the Limerick situation, I have gone back to what the people voted for. Fundamentally, we are democrats and, fundamentally, I have been true to what they voted for. The one thing I have done in the Bill, which came out of the IAG review group in Limerick, is to provide for a speaker and deputy speaker. I have tried to ensure this will have no impact whatsoever on the reserved powers of the councillors as they are. The directly elected mayor must bring enhancement. Powers will go to the mayor but some of them are delegated to the CEO. That is on the basis of what was put to the public.

I have dealt with the JPC. I have covered most of what Senator Cummins raised.

On the gratuity, I will give the thinking behind it. I gave a commitment when I came into office, and I am here a relatively short time, that I would deal with the maternity leave, which we have dealt with to allow females to go on maternity leave, and with the security allowance. I maintained the existing scheme and allowed councillors that choice. We did a forensic body of work on the gratuity. The gratuity is now linked to the current salary. Whatever salary a councillor is on at the time of retirement is the salary on which the calculation is based. It is based on three 20ths rather than the four 20ths under the representational allowance. That is what I brought forward and that is what the Minister for public expenditure agreed to.

Going back to Senator Moynihan's point on Civil Service or public service pensions, it is a non-contributory scheme. Councillors' salaries are linked to grade 4. Every time there are increases in public sector pay agreements, they get that increase as well.

On the matter of June, a councillor can go in under the existing scheme any time they wish but the view was taken that if we were giving an enhanced payment, it should be based on serving out the term they were elected for in terms of their democratic mandate from the people. In essence, the increase has been in the order of more than €8,000. That is the maximum increase that is available to a councillor from the gratuity scheme. The logic was based around the fact they can get under the existing scheme.

Senator Ward raised the municipal districts. I will look at that. Senator Boyhan-----

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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You will look at all of that.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Yes, absolutely. Senator Gallagher made a point. I look forward to the deliberations from Senator Mark Daly's public consultation committee and look forward to working with Senators that.

Senator O'Loughlin said we should ensure more people go for election to local authorities. I was elected a councillor many years ago in 2004. I hugely value the role of councillors. I have said on many occasions that I would not be here today only for councillors. When I lost my seat in 2016, they gave me the privilege of being elected to the Seanad. That allowed me to keep my career alive and I am eternally grateful. It is an evolving process. This is a very worthwhile debate. My door is always open for discussion and I look forward to working with Senators.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Before I call on the proposer to reply, I welcome to the Distinguished Visitors Gallery Martin O'Reilly, Michael O’Grady and Mike Carty, who are all guests of Senator Ahearn. I welcome them and hope they have a lovely evening in the Houses of the Oireachtas.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State so much for coming in here this evening to deal with this motion. I thank him for not opposing the motion as well. Could we have a copy of his speech? I know that most of it was off the cuff but that would be excellent so we can circulate it to our councillors around the country. I thank the Government parties for not opposing this motion. I thank the 13 Senators who turned up here tonight for this important debate. I am so privileged to be elected here by the county councillors of this country. It is a shame we did not see more Senators in here this evening. At the end of the day, they are elected by the ordinary elected members of our local authorities and they really should have been in here tonight to champion the work they do.

I just want to repeat some of what I have listened to here tonight and what Senators have said. They said we are setting councillors up to take a beating and that councillors do not get the due recognition for the level of work they put into the job. Do we want local democracy or administrative areas? The development plan 2023 should have a review phase after five years. Powers are being stripped away. It was not necessary to tinker around with Part 8. For the past 25 years, councillors have been pushed aside. Local, regional and central government does not work.This leads to endless frustration. Councillors take the temperature of the local population. The role of the councillors is being diminished. We need a rebalancing of powers. It is a vocation; it is not about the money. The workload has increased considerably. It is a full-time job for part-time wages.

I thank the Minister of State for the input he has had in the Department. He has delivered on the gratuity pay and the security allowance. Deputy Peter Burke was one of the finest Ministers of State with responsibility for local government that we had seen in a very long time. I like to think the pressure put on by the Independent Senators was instrumental in delivering the pay increase for the county councillors around the country.

It is not a living wage. The stark reality of our conversation this evening was seen in Senator Boyhan's contribution, when he said he could see 200 people not running for re-election after Christmas. It will be so sad to lose so much expertise and so much of the value they bring to their communities. It would be very sad to see 200 people stepping out of politics.

I thank the Department. There was €120,000 allocated for training for all councillors and this will be coming out next week. The Independent Group has secured some of this funding and we will be trying to get as many independent women as possible elected into local government. I took part in the Immigrant Council's mentoring scheme. It was very useful. It is important that we work with the migrant communities and ethnic communities in our country to bring them forward into politics and show them the way.

A public consultation session was held by the group, including the Leas-Chathaoirleach and Senators Cassells and Boyhan. I thank them. I was not here that day because I ended up in hospital. I heard it was a very productive meeting. I would love to have been there and please God I will be at the next one.

Senator Fitzpatrick spoke about the skills that are needed now to be a councillor. A councillor needs to be a planner, a solicitor and a social worker. The AILG does a fabulous job when it comes to training councillors. The training they provide every year is second to none. I commend it. I also commend LAMA on its advocacy for county councillors on the ground.

It is so important to have county councillors who are representative of every municipal area on the JPCs. They know what is rumbling on the ground. They know what is happening. They are the people who are keeping the gardaí informed about antisocial behaviour and any little incident that is happening in their community. Putting them out in the cold is not the way forward to run the JPCs.

I thank the Government for not opposing the motion. The contribution by Senator Cassells was an award-winning, Oscar-worthy performance. I know he is taking part in the Oscars on behalf of his local football club. He got great training here tonight. I wish him well in that fundraising effort.

Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Meath people stick together.

I welcome to the Distinguished Visitors Gallery members of the family of Barry Ryan, Superintendent of the Houses of the Oireachtas Barry Ryan. They are very welcome. I thank Mr. Ryan for his work. I hope they have a pleasant evening in the Oireachtas.

I thank Members for their contributions in respect of what has been a very engaging motion. I thank the Aire Stáit for his presence, work and contributions.