Seanad debates
Tuesday, 20 June 2023
Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters
Protected Disclosures
1:00 pm
Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State, Deputy Fleming, is very welcome to the House.
Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State for coming into the House. I ask him to make a statement on the publishing of the full protected disclosure investigation report on the Phoenix Park community nursing home, St. Mary's, in Dublin, the only nursing home run by the State during the Covid pandemic. I draw the Minister of State's attention to the fact we have the HSE whistleblower, Margo, here today. We also have the family of one of the residents of St. Mary's, Eileen Delany, who passed away of Covid, sadly, during the pandemic crisis. Margo Hannon raised concerns in St. Mary's shortly after the outbreak of the pandemic, when we had An Taoiseach talk to us from the United States about the pandemic and the measures and the steps we would have to take. We all remember those momentous days in March 2020 when we went into lockdown. Margo was working on the front line in St. Mary's as a very experienced healthcare assistant, with 16 years' experience.From the very outset, Margo Hannon had very serious concerns about infection control measures and the isolation of elderly and vulnerable patients who were being cared for by the State. They were at the very epicentre of the Covid-19 crisis. People should have known better than to put patients, our most venerable citizens, our elderly citizens, our mothers, fathers, grandfathers and grandmothers, at risk, and put them into this vulnerable position. She raised concerns which were not acted on, so she had to make a protected disclosure for which she experienced reprisal and retaliation. That is a common experience in Ireland. One is punished for doing the right thing. A report was commissioned on foot of her protected disclosure which was supposed to be expedient but took two years to report. This report was 500 pages in length and has not been published. The family members were not consulted. It seems to have been the case, with this report, that the investigators consisted of two senior members of the HSE on a reporting panel. It was not independent, nor could it be seen to be independent. Essentially, to get to the nub of this, Ms Hannon identified shortcomings that were validated during the first Covid-19 wave but no action was taken on the concerns she raised. During the fourth wave of Covid-19 there were several fatalities in that nursing home. We know this is part of a broader issue with regard to the concentration of elderly people in residential settings during the pandemic. We are going to have more pandemics. It is certain. That has been observed and predicted by the World Health Organization, WHO, and the HSE.
It is, therefore, essential this report be published in order that we can learn from the lessons and the issues raised by Ms Hannon, so that other families do not end up losing precious loved ones, as Bernadette Delany and her son, Seán, here did. I am also thinking of other vulnerable citizens like my own son, people who are disabled and medically compromised. Why not publish this? Why not set out the findings and, critically, the recommendations to protect and save the lives of our most vulnerable citizens.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am taking this on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly. I recognise how incredibly difficult it is for the families who lost loved ones during the pandemic, which presented one of the greatest and most wide-ranging public health challenges internationally in recent history. I extend my sympathy to the Delany family - Senator Clonan mentioned that Bernadette and Seán are here - on the sad passing of their family member who passed away in the Phoenix Park Community Nursing Unit at St. Mary's Hospital, at that time. There is not a family who did not have somebody belonging to it pass away because of the Covid-19 situation. Every one of us feels this deeply. I share their grief and difficulty on that.
I also acknowledge the role of Ms Hannon who made a number of observations. They were examined but not fully implemented. She was then forced to make a protected disclosure. I commend her on her strength and ability to do that. Many people will shy away from doing it. I believe the people who make such protected disclosures have to be protected by the State. I thank Senator Clonan for raising this matter. He indicated that she may have suffered because of making that protected disclosure. There should be clear mechanisms. There are mechanisms in place, so that an employer, be it an employer in the private or public sector, should not be allowed to cause difficulty for any staff member solely because he or she made a protected disclosure. It is a fundamental aspect of protected disclosure that there is protection for the person who makes such a disclosure. I hope that matter, which is a separate issue but is really at the core of what we are talking about here, is followed up by whatever means are appropriate for Ms Hannon. Nobody wants a situation whereby people feel that if they make a protected disclosure, after long and careful consideration, they can be victimised in any way by their employer.I support Margo Hannon in that regard and thank her for making that disclosure.
The protected disclosure made in 2020 raised issues relating to events in the community nursing home unit. At the outset of the pandemic, the HSE commissioned an independent team. Senator Clonan will say that because they were HSE staff, the team was not independent. He will also say that staff from the organisation who run the place that is involved are not independent because they are employees. I accept that, if that is the case. I am listening carefully to Senator Clonan on that. The team was independent of the specific unit, but it was not independent of the overall employer, which was the HSE. I take that point on board.
The investigation team completed a comprehensive executive summary for the HSE, which was published, as the Senator knows, in March of this year. The HSE has taken the decision not to publish the full report on the basis of its responsibility to balance the requirement for transparency with its obligation to the people - in this case, the residents, families and staff - whose sensitive information is contained within the full report. We have highlighted the dilemma here. Sometimes it is important to act on information that emerges on foot of protected disclosures and reports such as those in question. However, such information might cause difficulties for other people who are mentioned and who contributed to the process in confidence. Their wishes have to be respected too. There is a delicate balancing act here. It is not possible for everyone to be fully satisfied. However, the HSE provided an assurance that the comprehensive summary report that was published in relation to this protected disclosure fully represents the issues that were raised in the full report. Most of the findings of the investigation relate to infection prevention and control issues. The same issues were identified by the Covid-19 and nursing home expert panel in their report in August 2020.
Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State. He and I both know that the correct thing to do here is publish the report in full. It is 500 pages long, so a very small executive summary is not enough. What we are talking about here is an international standard. If a report is commissioned, then its findings and recommendations must be published in order that we can learn from them and contribute knowledge for the common good. This is in the public interest.
I note with some regret - and I do appreciate the Minister of State’s remarks, which are on the record of the House - that there is the perception that this was not an independent report. The HSE and other State agencies have unfortunately been recidivist in not publishing the material. I had to write to the Commissioner of An Garda Síochána, who is currently investigating another State agency for the withholding of information regarding vulnerable citizens. I intend to pursue the matter, and I will push for this.
I ask the Minister of State to prevail upon his colleagues in Cabinet and, in particular, the HSE to publish the full report, including its findings and recommendations, in order that we can protect families like the Delaneys in the future and, moreover, protect people like Margo Hannon. We are talking about a whistleblower who did the right thing. Imagine a society that punishes people for doing the right thing. I have personal experience of it myself. Yet, this is a person who is attempting to save lives, and she is being punished. That is emblematic of the culture in the HSE. The Minister of State and I are determined to confront and challenge that.
Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I understand what the Senator is saying. I will definitely raise this matter with the Minister for Health in order to follow on the issues that have been raised. It is probably no good to say it in the context of the case in question, but a big lesson has been learned here. Before a report is commissioned and the terms of reference agreed and commenced, it is important that the person who makes a protected disclosure and who is part of the process will be consulted in order that they will know the outcome of any report that is produced. People must know at the beginning if certain things are never going to be published, even if the matters to which they relate are to be examined. It needs to be clearly documented that the categories of such information, if they are personal to individuals, cannot be published without their consent. That is fair enough.
I accept that they cannot publish the information. Yet, it is no good coming in here and raising that now. The fault was during the initial stages, when they were agreeing the format of what would be published. This was before the report was concluded. There is a lesson there more broadly than just regarding this particular case. It is a lesson for all public servants and bodies. I will raise this matter directly with the Minister later today.
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
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Before we move on to Senator Gallagher, I acknowledge three young people from Clare who are here with us in the Gallery, namely, Mya O'Malley, Neila Ryan and Gateeva Rusk.The three of them are welcome. I believe they are doing some important work with our colleague, Senator Garvey, on her important Private Member's Bill on youth mental health. We all know of the difficult challenges in youth mental health. The fact that they are inputting their experiences, considerations and what they are learning from their environment in County Clare, directly into Senator Garvey's Private Member's Bill is extremely beneficial to the work we do in the House. I hope they have an enjoyable day here today and that they find their engagements fruitful, useful and informative. They are welcome.