Annie Hoey (Labour)
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I thank the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, for coming to the House. While it is great to have him here, we were interested in talking to the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform because we have been to believe that the delay lies with his Department as opposed to that of the Minister, Deputy Harris.

I will briefly outline the state of play and then my colleague, Senator Gavan, will speak more about the issue. Education tutors, SIPTU and the Teachers Union of Ireland, TUI, took a claim to regularise the employment of education tutors, of whom there are approximately 3,500. That claim was taken more than a decade ago. It was first encompassed in the Haddington Road Agreement and then it was developed in further agreements. My understanding is that progress on the claim ceased in 2019 when the then Department of Education and Skills refused to make an offer, as per a commitment in successive public service agreements, to establish a common sector-wide incremental salary scale for the employment of adult education tutors. The unions referred the matter to the Labour Court, as per the dispute resolution mechanism. The court, inter alia, considered it reasonable to recommend that the employer should identify a scale of costs it is now prepared or able to absorb to address the unions' claims and should formulate an offer within the parameters of the scale of cost. Despite repeated representations, protests outside Leinster House, and much communication between the Departments of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, the relevant Department has failed to formalise an offer. We believe the significant difficulty in this regard lies with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform.

Senators Gavan and Black- unfortunately, the latter cannot be present - and I, would like to get clarification on the delay in considering the Labour Court recommendations. In July, the Government promised that there would be a recommendation by September. For the sake of dramatics, I point out that it is now March 2023, which is some time on. Senator Gavan will speak more about the impact on the workers in the sector. We cannot afford to treat workers in the adult education sector in the way they are currently being treated.

Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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It is good to see the Minister.I do not know how much contact he has had with these workers but when you speak to them and hear about the constraints on their lives because of the lack of a decent public service contract, you discover they have to sign on every summer and have to take out credit union loans to get through that summer because they only get the money for the dole by the time they go back to work in September. You discover it is almost impossible for them to qualify for a mortgage and they are unable to plan financially for their futures. I am sure the Minister will agree these workers do incredibly important work, including everything from adult literacy to pre-university education courses. It is evident, despite the best efforts of their unions, both the TUI and SIPTU, they have been forgotten about. You need only do a search on this topic to see that a whole host of people across the Seanad and the Dáil have raised this issue before. They were promised there would be a resolution but there has been no resolution. We are now three years on from the Labour Court recommendation. As my colleague said, the promise of an offer that was made last September still have not been delivered. To be honest, both unions and their members have been incredibly generous to the Government by not balloting for strike action.

I hope the Minister will give a positive answer. I appeal to him, as someone who has engaged very well on Commencement matters in the past, not to give us an answer in terms of "We are working on this. It will come through shortly." We heard that last year and two years ago. These workers are at the end of their tether. They carry out incredibly important work. They are looking for decent contracts of work and if this were a private sector organisation, we would all be out picketing it. However, this is the State letting down some of the most important workers in the State. The Minister has the power to address this matter finally. I hope he will give us a positive and clear response today.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank Senators Hoey and Gavan, and Senator Black in her absence, for raising this important issue. I genuinely appreciate the opportunity it gives me to update them, the Seanad and, most importantly, the tutors, on the matters the Senators have raised.

As we all know, more than 3,300 adult education tutors are employed across our 16 education and training boards, ETBs. I agree they do incredibly good work. I have met many of them across the country, some of whom I have met in Leinster House and in my Department. There is no specific public sector grade of adult education tutor. Tutors are paid on an hourly-rate basis and generally at the unqualified teacher rate. That is where the frustration arises and the nub of this dispute centres on the need to have a public sector grade and to move beyond the hourly-rate basis generally paid at the unqualified teacher rate. The published rate for tutors dates from November 2013, and they are outside the national pay agreements. However, as Senators are aware, the rates are currently being reviewed.

The factual position is that a joint proposal has been prepared by my Department and the Department of Education. The reason for the Department of Education's involvement is that it still retains regulatory responsibility for the ETB sector. In that document, we have proposed the establishment of a grade of further education and training, FET, adult education tutor and that this would be formally established with a standardised pay scale aligned with the Youthreach resource person's scale. This grade will apply to staff employed in ETBs to deliver FET programmes who are currently employed under a variety of terms and conditions. We shared broad details of this proposal with union representatives in October 2022, and we acknowledged the need for further engagement to agree a final approach. Discussions on the details of the formal offer are ongoing with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform.

I want to be clear to Senator Gavan. I would love to be able to say we will have an answer on this date or that date. What I can tell the Senator, in all sincerity, is that I acknowledge this is going on longer than it should. I acknowledge there is huge frustration among adult tutors across the country, and I would like to see this brought to a conclusion quickly. I am personally engaging with the matter at the most senior levels possible to try to quickly bring this to a conclusion.

I have genuinely placed an unrelenting focus on the issue of adult literacy. We now have a Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. It is not acceptable that we live in a country where one in eight of us cannot read, one in six of us struggle to read a bill and half of us do not possess the necessary digital skills to thrive in society. To address that challenge, to get to where we want to get to, the people who will be crucial to doing that are these tutors. It is not acceptable to me, my Department or the Department of Education that they would continue to exist in a reality where they are employed under a variety of terms and conditions. That is why we have worked intensively to put forward a new grade, namely, FET-adult education tutor, that would have a standardised pay scale aligned with the Youthreach resource person's scale.When this was shared with the unions in October, we made it clear we had to engage. I accept it is now almost March but we are intensively engaging with a view to trying to bring this to a conclusion as quickly as possible. I am very happy to keep both Senators directly updated on this matter and to engage further with the union on this issue.

Annie Hoey (Labour)
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It is very positive the Minister is planning to establish FET adult education tutor graduates. As he said, we ultimately do not have an answer regarding the timeline for when this will be done. We specified the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform because we believe that is where the finances in respect of this issue lie. It would be great if it could answer the question. I apologise for not giving Senator Gavan much time.

Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein)
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Not at all. I again thank the Minister. I hear his engagement and I absolutely accept it. The blockage in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform is entirely unacceptable. Of course, there is also collective Cabinet responsibility. It is up to the Cabinet to resolve this matter without further delay. The Minister acknowledged how important this work and the issue of adult literacy is, yet these workers have been forgotten. That has been the reality for far too long.

Is an ideological blockage partly in play, not in the Minister's Department but in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform? Whenever we talk about improving workers' terms and conditions, there seems to be delay after delay. In this case, however, the Minister and I agree that these delays are entirely unacceptable. I would appreciate it if he would keep Senator Hoey and I informed because this cannot go on. This has to be resolved in the coming weeks and certainly no longer than another month. We have waited long enough.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I would like to bring this to a conclusion within the coming weeks. I acknowledge the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform is engaging fully and intensively with my officials. Indeed, I am engaging with the Minister in that Department on this matter. It is appropriate that engagement takes place. We are seeking to move to a different scenario as regards terms, conditions and pay than the one we have previously been in. That is right and appropriate because of the very valuable work that is being done and the recognition that the current scenario is operating at pay rates outside the current national pay agreements and date back, I think, to November 2013. There is a clear need for change. I want to bring it to a resolution. I would like to do that in the coming weeks. I am happy to keep both Senators directly updated and come back to the House when we have more finality regarding this matter.