Seanad debates

Thursday, 2 December 2021

Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters

Defective Building Materials

10:30 am

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, for being present in the House for this discussion. I welcome the Government decision in recent days to significantly enhance and increase the grant scheme to people who are affected by mica in Donegal, Mayo and Sligo. It is the right decision to try to put people back in good stead, but the reality is that the issue of defective blocks is not confined to Donegal, Mayo and Sligo. It is an established fact that pyrite is present in concrete blocks in the county from which I come, County Clare. It is an established fact that it has had an impact on many homes. It is an established fact that the blocks are crumbling and that significant cracking has taken place in houses. The appropriate testing has been done on five homes.Results have been received from the UK on the materials involved and as I said at the outset, it is an established fact that pyrite is present. Clare County Council, on behalf of the Department, was asked to submit a report with all the appropriate information required in the standard set out, that applied to Mayo and Donegal. It did that and I understand the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage has resorted to what I can only describe as time-delaying tactics. I want to see this brought to a head because it is an established fact that homes are crumbling. It is an established fact that it is as a result of pyrite. We do not need any further procrastination from Department officials, through the council, to delay this process. Two people have headed up the Clare Pyrite Action Committee, namely, Dr. Martina Cleary and Mary Hanley, and they have done sterling work. I have spoken to them over the past few days and they are disheartened because of the approach of the Department. Of course there are details that must be resolved and worked out. We are all prepared to work through that but some certainty should be shown to the homeowners in County Clare, and wider afield, where such materials are in blocks. In the first instance, the Department should be made to show respect to these people and to let them know they are going to be part of the scheme. Everybody knows there will be details to establish and work out. Nobody is expecting to have their home repaired before Christmas this year, nor next year either in many cases. Everybody accepts that this will go on for years, but the Department should stop messing about on the fringes. This is classic Civil Service activity, namely, dotting the i's and crossing the t's when the bottle of ink has spilled all over the page. It is not good enough. It does not show respect to the people.

I might hazard a hypothesis, with the greatest respect. Had the civil servants in the Department addressed the situation in counties Donegal, Mayo and Sligo a couple of years ago with more vigour and zeal and with more interest in getting a result, this would have been resolved a lot more quickly and cheaply. Time will bear that out. That is based on my conversations with people in the Donegal area. Quite frankly, had they been treated a little bit better and sooner, we would not be in the mess that we are in today. I appeal to the Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Noonan, as a man who understands this well and who is a compassionate man who understands people, the environment and what it is like to see your home crumbling around you. He should see his way to bringing some common sense to bear in the Department. The people should be told that they are going to be part of the scheme, now that the presence of pyrite in the blocks has been established, and the Department can then move on with the detail. We can all hammer that out afterwards.

Photo of Malcolm NoonanMalcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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I thank Senator Dooley. Similar to the situation right across other counties, it is a hugely traumatic time for these families and I acknowledge that. The Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, has been deeply committed to resolving this since taking up office. He has acted with a great sense of purpose in establishing the working group. That working group is not directly representing the families the Senator refers to in County Clare, but it is a representative group that has brought the issues to light. Similarly, if owners were to apply under the existing defective concrete blocks, DCB, scheme they would not have got this enhanced scheme. There are positives to be seen in what has been a very progressive and positive resolution to this, or certainly, the start of a resolution to this, in the scheme announced by the Government this week. It is a very expansive scheme, with 100% redress as requested. There are some concerns about the sliding scale but it contains many other elements that I hope will lead families in counties Sligo, Mayo and Donegal to see this as a very positive development. Hopefully then we can apply this to Country Clare. I will give the Department's official response but there has certainly not been procrastination. A huge amount of work has been done since this Government was formed. I recognise the trauma it has caused the Senator's constituents.

As the Senator is aware, the Government has agreed to fundamentally overhaul the defective concrete blocks scheme with a number of major improvements for affected homes. Details of these changes were published on Tuesday, 30 November. Not only will this improve the scheme for local authorities currently within scope of the scheme, namely, those in Donegal and Mayo, it will also benefit those local authority areas that come into the scheme in the future as a result of the extension beyond Donegal and Mayo. In this regard the Department received a submission from Clare County Council, dated 23 July 2021, requesting the extension of the defective concrete blocks grant scheme to County Clare. A response issued to the council on 3 August 2021 indicating that the Department would review the submission and seeking a detailed breakdown of costs associated with the report. A breakdown of costs associated with the report was received on 28 September 2021. In order to progress matters, a meeting was held on 9 November 2021 between officials from the Department and Clare County Council to review issues contained within the submissions, which required further elaboration in order to evidentially support an extension of the defective concrete blocks grant scheme to County Clare.

Clare County Council undertook to review its submission in light of the detailed discussion which took place and to address the gaps in evidential data which were identified. The Department is eager to progress this matter and will, as a matter of priority, review clarifications when received from the local authority to support its application for an extension of the defective concrete blocks scheme to that local authority area. An extension of the scheme to Clare and other local authority areas has been considered as part of wider deliberations on the scheme by the Government. In this regard, the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage may, subject to Government approval, extend the scheme beyond Donegal and Mayo to additional counties as appropriate and required, where the evidence supports such an extension. Therefore, it is critical that Clare County Council submit all clarifications and information requested to support the inclusion of County Clare. I can assure the Senator that on receipt by the Department of the clarifications sought, progress can be made on the requested extension of the DCB scheme to County Clare.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State. The devil is in the detail. Some of the response states that an assurance will be given on receipt by the Department on clarifications sought. From talking to engineers who were involved in submissions from both Clare and Mayo, my understanding is that the submission was in line with the standards set out and the information provided that allowed Mayo and Donegal to enter the scheme. The engineering people who I am talking to are at a loss to understand what further clarification is required. There is, as I said, an established fact that pyrite is present in the blocks in Clare. It is an established fact that this impacts on the ability of people to live in their homes. We can fiddle around the edges with detail and try to delay this. My concern is that there is a reticence within some aspect of the Department. At political level there is certainly a desire to make it happen. Notwithstanding the commitment of the Minister of State, which I know is fulsome, wholesome and genuine, and the same is true of the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, who has visited the homes in Clare, I am still concerned and I would like better information to understand why Clare County Council is expected to provide something different to what Mayo and Donegal county councils provided in establishing their bona fides to enter the scheme. It may not be something the Minister of State can provide me with today but I hope that those within the Department who have access to that information could make it public, let us know what it is, and let us move on.

Photo of Malcolm NoonanMalcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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I will give that assurance again. The Senator is absolutely correct in saying there is a deep commitment by the Department at ministerial level and at official level to resolve this. The Donegal and Mayo scheme was to set a template for other counties. The fact that we now have an enhanced scheme gives the opportunity for Clare County Council to work with the Department to ensure that County Clare is included as soon as is practicable. That is what we all want to achieve. We want to give some assurances and hope to these families, coming up to Christmas, that they can now see a way forward with a scheme that is very expansive with 100% redress, albeit there is a sliding scale. There are many good provisions within that scheme and I believe families in County Clare certainly will welcome this once they are included. What I would ask the Senator to take back is to work with Clare County Council in order that Clare County Council engages, now that the enhanced scheme has landed, and that we try to move this forward as soon as we can.