Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, motion re the creation of a European account preservation order to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business, without debate; No. 2, Road Traffic (No. 2) Bill 2011 - amendments from Dáil Éireann, to be taken on the conclusion of No. 1 and to conclude not later than 1 p.m. if not previously concluded; No. 3, motion re the earlier signature motion for the Road Traffic (No. 2) Bill 2011, to be taken without debate on the conclusion of No. 2; and No. 4, the Dormant Accounts (Amendment) Bill 2011 - Committee and Remaining Stages, to be taken on the conclusion of No. 2 and to conclude not later than 2.30 p.m. if not previously concluded.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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We will not oppose the Order of Business. The fallout from the job losses at Aviva continues to reverberate throughout the country. It is now obvious that there are some underlying difficulties affecting not only Aviva, but also the wider financial services industry. It seems apparent that our high cost base has led to job losses in many companies operating here, coupled with the meltdown in the financial services industry.

I suggest to the Leader that the Government should show greater commitment to encouraging more people to take out private pensions. It is extraordinary that at a time when the insurance industry, and the financial industry in general, is in meltdown the Government is proposing to further reduce the attractiveness of private pensions by imposing additional financial penalties on people. I refer in particular to the commitment in the programme for Government to reduce the tax rates, which is illogical. Over 50% of the workforce do not have private pensions. The National Pensions Reserve Fund set up by the former Minister for Finance, Charlie McCreevy, has been raided to the point where it is now down to €5 billion. Unquestionably, there is a pensions time bomb looming if not for our generation then the next. When one considers that the Government took the initiative to introduce a levy of 1% on all premiums, a 0.6% levy on the private pension funds and a 2% levy on general insurance, which will take effect next year, it is not surprising that a major player, such as Aviva is pulling out of the country. What is particularly significant, however, are their reasons for leaving. It seems to be almost as a result of high wages and prices.

I suggest to the Leader that the Government must embark on an urgent review of the relationship between high prices and high wages. Mr. Brendan Keenan, a respected economist, states in today's Irish Independent that all of us, including politicians and trade union leaders, are justifying high wages because of higher prices. It is a vicious circle. Jobs will continue to be lost unless the Government takes action and I propose that the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, should outline the Government's response to these job loses in the House.

The Government cannot continue to wring its hands and blame the international trading environment or the euro crisis for what now seems to be the tip of the iceberg. Not only have jobs been lost in Aviva, but another 40 jobs have been lost overnight in the pharmaceutical company, Merk Sharp and Dohme, which has been in Rathdrum, County Wicklow since 1961.

It seems clear now there is a direct link between high prices and wages. It is a vicious cycle and it is past time to ensure we do not have a further haemorrhage of jobs and that the Minister, Deputy Bruton, should attend the House in advance of the budget and outline exactly what the Government is doing to protect the jobs we have. It is inevitable, sadly, that we will lose more jobs.

There is an article in today's newspaper about begging in our streets. The Roma gypsies are operating in the city centre and in towns and villages across the county. The Garda issued a statement that one Roma gypsy in Dublin, who was identified as a bare footed beggar, operating in the Grafton Street area was found to have €1,500 on him. According to the Garda he has more runners in his house than Footlocker because people are buying runners for him when they see him in his bare feet. I am sure the Leader will agree that well intentioned people should be actively discouraged from giving money to these people. I am not referring to people who are out begging because of economic circumstances.

This is a well controlled and organised group of Roma gypsies that are specifically operating here. There have been almost 500 prosecutions since the anti-begging laws were introduced in February 2011. Again, it might be worth considering a review of the begging laws. Begging in itself is not a criminal offence, it is the aggressive nature of begging that is the offence and it goes to show how aggressive they are that the Garda have secured 500 prosecutions. I am sure the Leader will agree with me that the good citizens, who are well intentioned in giving money to plaintive looking bare footed beggars, are contributing to a well organised crime syndicate. I praise the Garda for the manner in which this group has been identified. It arrested many of them.

Jimmy Harte (Labour)
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I concur with many of the sentiments expressed by Senator Mooney on Aviva. I know this industry from my years in the insurance business as an agent of Hibernian Insurance in the early 1980s. It developed from Hibernian Insurance and merged with Norwich Union to become a large company with a great future, Aviva. The cost of running an insurance company like Aviva in Ireland has proven to be difficult. Having spoken to its staff over the past few months, who could see what was coming down the line for Aviva, it was clear that many were critical of the management structure and the costs they were incurring. The company was located in Haddington Road in the former Hibernian Insurance headquarters and it spread throughout the country and moved to premises in the Rathmines area. The cost of relocation was substantial but I stand to be corrected on that.

The view of many Aviva staff members was the company was being run by salesmen rather than people who had a corporate governance background. This did not help the development of Aviva during the good times. Many insurance companies and banks headed down the direction of overselling rather than looking to the future. Unfortunately, Aviva is suffering. I do not believe the pension business in Aviva is struggling as it is in the separate life end of the business and the increase in pension charges does not impact on it.

The Aviva operation in Ireland concentrates on motor, household and personal and commercial business. The comments of the economist that the cost base is too expensive is true. I ask that the Minister should attend the House to give us an overview of his analysis of the general insurance business throughout the county and not just Aviva, but the large players such as Zurich, Allianz and other companies that have a long tradition in Ireland and have contributed immensely to the business and personal fortunes of Irish citizens. I ask the Leader to request the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, or the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, to give us their feedback from the other companies providing general insurance. People have insurance on their car, house or business.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Like Senator Harte I too find myself very largely in agreement with our good friend and colleague opposite, Senator Mooney. I concur with his views on the Romas in our capital city. Sadly, the Roma gypsies are spread throughout the country. A group of Roma gypsies came to Killarney; they are like an organised cell, with emigrant remittances going the wrong way. The money was going through Western Union to Romania. The sad thing is that genuine beggars are getting a bad name, the people who need to collect a few bob to survive, and eat and clothe themselves.

We must discriminate when giving charity. I did not know about the bare footed Roma on Grafton Street, to whom Senator Mooney referred, having more runners than could be found in a shop. The begging laws were amended and improved and the Garda have been able to discover these groups but we must be on our watch. The pervasive presence of beggars in the capital city is not good for our image.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Is the Senator seeking a debate on the issue?

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I defer to the Leader in that regard. Senator Mooney might have views about that too.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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It would require a review of the Act.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I agree.

Sean Barrett (Independent)
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Arising from the discussion of the Keane report at the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, an apparent anomaly arose in regard to the rights of tenants in buy-to-let schemes where the landlord defaults. Apparently the tenants could lose their houses, even though they are not the defaulting party. The issue was raised by FLAC and Threshold. Mr. Keane said it had not come to his attention when they were working on the report. I doubled checked it with FLAC and Threshold after the meeting. I ask the Leader to raise this matter with the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Penrose, and also with a person of legal training. It seems very strange that the tenants do not enjoy legal protection where they pay the rent but where the landlord defaults in one of the buy-to-let schemes.

Susan O'Keeffe (Labour)
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I had the pleasure this morning of having breakfast with Science Foundation Ireland. Those of us who were lucky enough to attend heard about a treasure trove of activity that is almost like a parallel universe. People are working to try to improve weather forecasting, rebuild bone, identify the fastest racehorses in the world and to cure seizures in tiny babies. It is cause for great optimism that such work is progressing and is being funded in this country. Could we have a debate on how we could support that work? We could do so specifically in one area by forming some type of cross-party scientific group. This was discussed at the meeting this morning. Perhaps the House could take a lead on this. We might not be scientists but we can at least show our support for the work and expertise being built up and coming to this country. Perhaps if parliamentarians understood this work more effectively we could contribute to what they need.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I was not present for the debate yesterday on the motion put down by Fianna Fáil regarding Army barracks and the Defence Forces. However, I listened to most of the debate and to the Minister's response. It was an appalling debate, the worst that has taken place in this House since I became a Member. It was not a debate. There was no constructive analysis or comment from the Minister-----

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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It is inappropriate to reopen yesterday's debate.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I am making a point about the debate.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator must ask a question.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I have a question for the Leader about it. The Minister's response was absolutely appalling, as was the response from the Government Members of the House. They did not address any of the issues that were put to them. It is important that the Minister return to the House to answer the questions that were put to him.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader will respond. There is no point going back over the debate.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Rather than attacking Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin, the Minister should have addressed the substance of the motion. When people who were in the Gallery for the debate left they were absolutely shocked by the performance of the Government parties, especially the Labour Party.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Do you have a question for the Leader?

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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If that is the quality of debate we will have in the future-----

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is making a statement on yesterday's debate and that is inappropriate.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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-----it says a great deal about the Government. Will the Leader ensure that the Minister who was here yesterday returns to the Chamber to address the issues raised in the motion tabled by Fianna Fáil and the amendment tabled by Sinn Féin, and that he does so in a constructive way? Will he also ensure that we have constructive debates in this House and not have Ministers coming to the Chamber to use Private Members' business to attack the Opposition rather than deal with the substance of the motions?

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Hear, hear.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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My second point relates to jobs. I support the calls for a debate on jobs. There is no doubt that the Government's jobs initiative is an abysmal failure. I do not see any of the jobs the Government promised to create. I do not see how the jobs initiative has done anything to lift the domestic economy. All we see are more job losses. A further 26 manufacturing jobs were lost in Waterford this week, in addition to the 575 job losses in TalkTalk and the 950 job losses in Aviva Insurance. Far from jobs being created, we continue to see more jobs lost. It is important that we again have a debate on the fact that 450,000 people are out of work. Young people are still being forced to emigrate. Rather than blaming the previous Government and the Opposition, the Government should be delivering the jobs and investment that the people need to get this country back on track.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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On a point of order-----

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I hope you are not re-opening yesterday's debate.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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No. I was ruled out of order twice last week for asking a question about the Central Bank. Is this a party political broadcast or statement?

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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That is not a point of order. The Senator is well aware of that.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Senator Keane was obviously not present yesterday.

Caít Keane (Fine Gael)
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I listened to the entire debate.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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There should be no engagement across the floor.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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What we got from the Minister was a party political broadcast.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Please address your questions to the Leader.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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What we got from the Labour Party was also a party political broadcast. I remind the Government Members-----

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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The Senator should put a question to the Leader.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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-----that when they were in opposition, every day in the Dáil we got party political broadcasts by Deputy Eamon Gilmore and members of the Labour Party. Now that they are in government all they can do is blame the previous Government.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I have been very lenient with you, Senator.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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They will not take responsibility for the fact that they are now in government and need to make decisions.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator's time is up. I call Senator Noone.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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Rather than attacking the Opposition, they should get down to the business of delivering for the people of this country. That is what they promised to do when they were elected but they have failed to do it.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator must resume his seat.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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All they can do is come into the House, attack the Opposition and abdicate any responsibility.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Senator's party engaged in the same process last night as well.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator must resume his seat.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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You are engaging in the same process.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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No, absolutely not.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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You are.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I am putting it to the Government-----

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Cullinane must resume his seat.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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-----that it is failing to do what it said.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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He is hoping to be thrown out.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I am not looking to be thrown out.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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Cheap headlines.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I call Senator Noone.

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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I agree with my colleagues, particularly Senator Paul Coghlan, on the Roma gypsy issue. There are people of all nationalities in this country who are in difficulty but these organised gangs do not appear to fall into that category. I cannot put it any better than Senator Mooney and Senator Paul Coghlan. However, the Minister for Justice and Equality is a very reasonable and efficient man and I hope he will find time in his busy schedule to deal with this serious issue. The Roma gypsies prey on the vulnerability of people like me. I feel guilty when I walk past those people and do not give them money. It is a serious issue and the Minister would be well advised to take the time to examine it. I ask the Leader to discuss the matter with the Minister for Justice and Equality.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Will the Leader confirm the date the Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly, is coming to the Seanad? Will he consider taking No. 16, motion No. 3, on the Order Paper, which relates to Roscommon hospital, on that date? The Leader can take it that there will be a question to the Minister and that Roscommon hospital will feature in the debate.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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The Senator will make sure of it.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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The situation there is very serious. We have lost the accident and emergency service and it is causing great concern as we go into the winter months. I will ask the Minister to consider that.

Second, I do not expect a reply from the Leader today but will he examine the situation regarding the Lisbon treaty? Under the Lisbon treaty this House was required to scrutinise European legislation. That has not been the case since our election to the House. In fact, the European affairs committee is no longer scrutinising legislation. The foreign affairs and some other joint committees are scrutinising it. However, the legislation is building up and an enormous amount is not being given proper scrutiny in either House.

Only this House or the Dáil can refer legislation back through a system of rejection or reconsideration. Will the Leader consider this matter and see if we can devote, perhaps, one day every two weeks to European legislation? We could sit on a Thursday or Friday to do so. Perhaps the Leader would ask his advisers to examine this issue and see if we could accommodate the scrutiny of legislation from Europe. I do not believe any committee has knowledge that is equal to what is available in this House. All the committees' members are nominated but this House represents the entire country and its different views.

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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There is an enormous amount of knowledge in the House which could be of great benefit in scrutinising European legislation.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I sympathise, up to a point, with what has been said about begging and the presence of particular scamsters on our streets. However, is it really helpful or useful or does it add anything to the debate to identify the provenance of particular scamsters? The truth is that we have plenty of home-grown types who engage in similar behaviour.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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The Garda identified them specifically.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Members should address their comments through the Chair.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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We should always question that. I do not criticise the bona fides of my colleagues but we should always question why it is necessary because I know one lady, who is a home-grown person with a particularly plaintive voice, who has been chilling me to the marrow for years. It is only because I have been seeing her for the best part of 20 years that the situation cannot continue to be as urgent as her voice indicates. We need to tackle this behaviour and we should not be unduly concerned with identifying the nationality or the ethnicity of the people because of the problem.

Catherine Noone (Fine Gael)
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We have to have courage to do so.

Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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The budget is coming up and the Department of Education and Skills proposes to make savings of €1 billion over the next four years. The Church of Ireland Archbishop of Dublin, Michael Jackson, has rightly raised the particular needs and issues facing Church of Ireland national schools. He is concerned about the State's long-term commitment to sustained provision of school transport in rural areas. There is a challenge facing Church of Ireland schools if school transport is affected. Parents will perhaps choose schools that are closer to them. If we are only focused on the financial bottom line, there is a danger that we could undermine the texture and diversity of the school system. The archbishop is right to make the point he has made and the Government should heed his concerns and those of the Church of Ireland community in regard to education.

Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)
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Last night debate's on the possible closure of Army barracks was not the most edifying that I have attended. Both sides of the House will agree on that. There was a feeling that it was not the best way to reflect and represent the views that had been brought to us from the various areas in question. Many of the challenges we face cause a great deal of frustration and part of the frustration is fed by the sense of helplessness we all feel. We had better realise that the helplessness and frustration will permeate many issues inside and outside the House.

One issue worth debating in the House - the Taoiseach should come to the House participate in the debate - is the contribution community organisations make. When there are economic and other pressures or emergencies, the gap is generally filled quickly by these organisations. My home town, Cashel, has 37 community organisations, which cover a wide spectrum of activity, including sport, culture and charity. While many of us are involved in debates and trying to find solutions to the bigger issues, these people are at the coal face and they act urgently and quickly to help in any way they can. The purpose of the debate would be to outline the ways and means we can help these organisations financially and with other resources.

The debate should take place prior to the budget. I suggest the Taoiseach should take part in the debate because he is focused on this issue and because individual Ministers will only deal with one aspect of it. We had a wonderful debate on the arts with the Ministers for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht but we need a broader debate. Given that there are many Departments and agencies involved, the Taoiseach would be the right person to come to the House. This would also send an exceptionally good message. We need positivity and that is the bedrock of community organisations. They do not waste time with negative discussion and looking for scapegoats; they just get on the work. If the debate takes place, I have suggestions on how we can help without putting pressure on the Exchequer. I have another direction on which I could make recommendations that would provide resources but would not the cost the Exchequer. The Leader has been helpful on many occasions and not just to make the House more relevant. That is not the reason I raise this issue. We have a huge powerhouse at our disposal, which reaches into every village, town and city.

I take the comment made by Senator D'Arcy earlier this week. There are some issues about which we should not be partisan and on which there should be unanimity. This is one area where every Member could set an example and instead of feeding frustration, we could come up with answers and use the outlet provided by community organisations. If the Taoiseach could find the time to come to the House, it could lead to something important in these difficult and challenging times.

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)
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I support Senator Ó Murchú's request for a debate because we are all very much aware of the contribution community organisations make to life throughout the country. A debate would show them we are interested and support what they are doing. An economic benefit could derive from us all putting our heads together to discuss this matter.

Senator Cullinane was rather negative. He is unfair to the Government by saying no effort has been made to create jobs. When the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and the Government outlined their strategy in this regard, they indicated that what was being put in place would be just the first phase. Will the Leader facilitate at an early stage a further discussion with the Minister on job creation? The biggest crisis facing the country is unemployment, with 450,000 on the live register, and the number of young people emigrating. The matter needs to be discussed but it must be acknowledged that progress is being made. The reduction in the VAT rate and so on were positive initiatives and, for example, jobs were created in the tourism industry. I would like another debate on how all of us might contribute to assisting the Government and make the next leap and significant contribution to the jobs crisis facing the country. I am sure the Minister would be prepared to come to the House to listen to what Members have to say while taking on board shortcomings and failings and positive contributions.

Feargal Quinn (Independent)
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I was impressed by Senator Leyden's reference to the ability of both Houses to scrutinise European legislation. In the past, we had a Joint Committee on European Scrutiny but we do not have that any more and I am not sure whether that legislation is being scrutinised. The House could well play an active part in this. The reason I raise this is comments yesterday by the British Lord Chief Justice, where he argued the case regarding European Court of Human Rights decisions. He said there was an arguable case that judges should take account of decisions from Strasbourg but not be bound by them. I do not know where we stand but the British are saying judges can take decisions into account but are not bound by them.

The EU legislation, which we support to a large extent, needs scrutiny. When that discussion took place yesterday, the Home Secretary in Britain, Theresa May, called for the scrapping of their human rights Act. It was based on one thing which was that an illegal immigrant could not be deported because he had a pet cat. Human rights legislation from Strasbourg had overridden their legislation. I hope we are in a better position than the British in this area but I am not sure because we do not have a committee to scrutinise legislation. I am not sure how well we are scrutinising legislation.

Senator Ó Murchú made a very strong statement on community efforts. There is a huge need for that. Active citizenship is alive and well in the country. What can be done by the State? State bodies can do something, without it costing money. For example, RTE has committed itself to a series of programmes starting in two weeks' time called "Local Heroes - A Town Fights Back". It selected the town of Drogheda and identified how that town can work together. It does not put money into the town but acts as a catalyst to the communities in the town to do things for themselves. It will be very interesting but it would not necessarily have happened without RTE saying it believes it has a public service broadcasting obligation to do the right thing. It is helping to start this movement in this particular town. Other State bodies could do something similar, using their own abilities.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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Yesterday, we had an excellent debate on the closure of Army barracks. It is a pity Senator Cullinane did not attend and take the opportunity-----

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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We cannot refer to yesterday's debate. I already chastised Senator Cullinane for going down that road, so I hope Senator Landy will divert from the same juncture and not make the same mistake.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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I do not intend to do so but what I want-----

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Yesterday's debate is finished and we cannot rehash it today. Senator Cullinane apologised for not being here and that is a matter for himself.

David Cullinane (Sinn Fein)
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I heard the debate.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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That is fine. He will interrupt me again the same as he-----

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Denis Landy (Labour)
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This is very important to Senator Ó Murchú and I. We spent the past hour with Army wives and other people in Buswell's Hotel to prepare for a meeting we will have with the Minister at 12 p.m. today where the real work will be done to try to save the barracks.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I have been lenient with the Senator. That is not a matter for the Order of Business.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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The Leas-Chathaoirleach has been lenient and I appreciate that.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should address a question to the Leader who is waiting anxiously for one.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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I know he is. I have a horse for him, so I will give him that as well.

The contributions made, in particular that by Senator Wilson, will be very helpful to us in our meeting with the Minister. There was political dialogue and it was a little bit unsavoury.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is continuing down the road I asked him to avoid. Will he ask a question? The Senator should not take advantage of my leniency.

Denis Landy (Labour)
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Yesterday, Members received a briefing from the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland. Will the Leader raise the following issue with the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Rabbitte? When somebody gets a grant to improve the insulation in his or her home, which incidentally I am getting done next Tuesday, there is no measurement of the building energy rating before the grant is provided, although there is a measurement after the work is done.

The idea of this is to reduce energy use in terms of fuel, etc. We are giving grants to people but we are not measuring the improvements made. That is a very important point and it should be incorporated into this scheme. A test should be done before the work commences and not after it. Will the Leader raise this with the Minister? We are giving out millions of euro. It is a brilliant scheme and the provision of this money is creating 6,000 jobs currently. Will Leader raise this so we have proper measurement of the improvements made?

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Ar eagla go mbeimid ro-dhiúltach ar fad ar maidin, tá moladh dearfach le déanamh agam. I would like to inject a note of positivity into the morning. I note my esteemed colleague, Senator Micheal Mullins, asked us to be a bit more positive, so we will be. However, we will be more positive when we see some more jobs come from the jobs initiative.

I would like to suggest a very positive debate which could link up tourism, natural resources and international relations and make us much more esteemed on a European level. We should ask the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Gilmore, to come to the House for a debate on the links between this country and Norway. Norway is a very interesting country. Its population is roughly the same size as Ireland's and there are a large number of similarities. It has a multilingual culture and a very good education system. It has a maritime culture and it gets great use out of its petroleum, gas, fishing, farming, etc. It has a very rural population.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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We cannot have the debate now.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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I am trying to explain why this will be so useful in terms of a debate. We have a lot to learn from Norway. Norway twice refused to join the EU but it still has good and positive trade relations with the European Union which are very favourable to it as a country. We would have a huge amount to learn from Norway and it would be very interesting to find out from the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade what steps have been taken to create and foster better relations with Norway, to learn how it has set up its engagement with multinational companies which exploit their natural resource, for example, how it has come to have such good education and welfare systems and how it has such good links with the European Union, although it is outside it. That would be a very important and useful debate.

When one looks at the Viking connection to Dublin, we could certainly-----

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is engaging in a protracted debate now. That debate should take place when the Leader agrees to it.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Other Senators were not interrupted when their contributions were protracted. From a tourism perspective, there is the Viking link. People in Norway have plenty money and it would be interesting to try to get more of them to come to this country to spend some of that money here.

When the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade comes to the House, we could ask him another serious question. Why are there 14 special advisers to this Government who are getting paid more than what is in the guidelines it laid down? Two of them work for the Tánaiste and two of them work for the Taoiseach.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Tá an t-am istigh anois.

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Tá sé an-tábhachtach go bhfreagrófaí an cheist seo. Tá an Rialtas seo ag leagaint síos riail amháin do dhuine amháin agus riail amháin do dhuine eile. I was at a French class this morning and one of the phrases we learned was plus ça change. This Government is doing exactly what it chastised the previous Government for doing - paying over the odds. It is not paying the carers any extra; it is cutting back on the carer's allowance.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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That issue might be appropriate-----

Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (Sinn Fein)
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Ba cheart sin a tharraingt siar agus ba cheart an tAire Howlin a thabhairt isteach sa Teach leis an cheist a fhreagairt faoi cén fáth go bhfuil siad in ann advisors a íoc ach go bhfuil siad ag gearradh siar i ngach áit eile.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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That issue might be appropriate for the Adjournment debate.

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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I would like the Leader to arrange a debate on the future of the retail trade, in particular small shops in rural Ireland. I refer to the small hardware shop, the boutique and the menswear shop, as in my case. This sector is really struggling. It has been part of the fabric of Irish life for generations. Family businesses have been handed down from one generation to the next. I happen to be the fourth generation in my particular business and that is quite common.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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A fine shop it is too.

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Senator. His custom is greatly valued.

The future is very bleak. Sales and turnover are down and costs remains high. I am not talking about the large multiples like Lidl or Aldi. When one of those opens in a town, four or five small businesses close. There is competition which we respect but it is high time we looked at the contribution the retail trade has made to this country in terms of creating employment.

We were all rightly shocked at the news that 1,000 jobs will be lost in Aviva. It is a war of attrition with small shops trying to hold on to their staff. Everything is paid to the minimum. I know of shopkeepers who are taking lightbulbs from their shops to cut down on light and heat.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The point is well made, Senator.

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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When family farms were under pressure the Government of the day went to their aid, and rightly so, in the form of subventions, payments and other supports. I do not see any level of support coming from the sector to which I referred. Rates and service charges still have to be paid and insurance has to be covered. It is remorseless and every time a door closes two or three jobs are lost. I ask the Leader to try to get the relevant Minister to come to the House to determine how we can approach the issue while there is still time.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I apologise to Senator O'Brien. I did not see her indicate earlier.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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We cannot have a debate now, however interesting it may be.

John Gilroy (Labour)
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The voices of the ordinary people, as well as the other voices, of Ireland should be heard in this Chamber.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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We are.

John Gilroy (Labour)
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Rightly so. I ask the Leader to intervene with the Minister for Health or the Minister for Education and Skills in regard to a case I came across recently. I will not mention names but it relates to a 15 year old boy who suffers from muscular dystrophy and uses a wheelchair. He will be made homeless within the next week due to a tenancy arrangement which is rather unsatisfactory.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has asked a question but it may be more appropriate to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

John Gilroy (Labour)
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The Leas-Chathaoirleach is correct. I am raising the issue on the Order of Business because it points to the disconnect in thinking between different agencies in the State. When this issue is resolved - it can be resolved very easily but it needs a ministerial push - we could have a debate on the lack of joined up thinking in our agencies. South Dublin County Council and Dublin City Council cannot seem to sort out this single housing issue. While we do not discuss individual cases, the case to which I referred merits a mention in the House. I will pass the details of the case to the Leader. Perhaps he would see if he could resolve it.

Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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I want to reiterate a request I made to the Leader a fortnight ago. I asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine to come to the House as soon as possible to discuss the future funding of CAP and the way in which funding will be spent in this country. As my colleagues will know, last week initial proposals were made public. The bottom line is that it seems Ireland will continue to receive a significant level of European funding for agriculture in line with what we already receive.

The debate will have to be very engaged and detailed in terms of how those moneys will be spent. A major choice faces the Minister, political system and farming organisations in terms of how we spend the money and the future we see for farmers in Ireland, in particular small farmers who currently have grave income problems and have not benefited as much as they should have over the past ten or 15 years from European funding. There will be a choice and debate which will cause difficulty and a certain degree of division but it needs to start as soon as possible.

The Leader has been in contact with the Minister but he should try to come to the House for a debate because the architecture of the future of rural Ireland and farming can be put in place over the next 12 months. It is a fundamentally important debate and will decide whether we want to keep smaller farmers and landholders on the land. It is a debate worth having in the House.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Senator Mooney raised the meltdown in the financial services sector. As I outlined yesterday, the insurance market declined by up to 30%, which is a cause for concern. It is the aim of the Government to restore confidence and competitiveness in the economy, which is necessary. Through its policies, the Government will endeavour to do that.

Senators Mooney, Coghlan, Noone, Mullen and others raised the question of begging in the streets and a review of the begging laws. Legislation was introduced last year. Aggressive begging and begging in businesses was prohibited. If there is a need to change the law, I am sure the Minister will address the problem.

Senator Harte and others raised the question of Aviva and the insurance industry in general. Perhaps we can have debate on that next month.

I will check the situation outlined by Senator Barrett in regard to FLAC and landlords and revert to him.

Senator O'Keeffe raised an important point on science and the possibility of a cross-party scientific group being formed. It is important that we build on the successes of the past in science and look to the future. It is an area on which we can build and have a good record on. We need to continue to progress our record. If a cross-party scientific group will help we should consider it.

Some Senators referred to last night's Private Members' motion. I do not intend to return to the debate but it could have been more edifying.

Senator Cullinane also raised the question of the 450,000 jobless people, as did Senator Mullins and others. It is a crisis situation and the Government sees it as such. The jobs initiative will not solve the jobs crisis. It is a start, as was outlined by the Government. We have seen an increase of over 13% in tourism in the first seven months of the year. VAT has been reduced and I do not hear any of those who have availed of it saying it has not helped to sustain their businesses. We have built on sustainable energy, as was outlined.

I know it is the job of opposition to be negative, but there are many positive things happening in our communities. Senator Leyden asked that the Minister for Health attend the House to discuss the Roscommon issue. Party leaders have been asked to provide written questions to the Minister for Health to my office today. I am not sure whether they have been received as yet. However, the questions tabled in writing are the ones that will be answered first.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I am sure the Minister is aware of the Roscommon issue.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I am sure one of the five questions asked by Senator Leyden will be on that issue.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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When will the Minister attend the House?

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader without interruption, please.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Senator Leyden also made a good point, one raised here on several occasions, in regard to EU scrutiny and the possibility of having further scrutiny of EU proposals in this House. The committees are charged with responsibility in this regard. If they do not have sufficient time to deal with such proposals, I am willing to provide time for this House to do so. I believe that is a good idea, one to which I am amenable should the committees consider that they have insufficient time to deal with those matters.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Excellent.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Senator Mullen asked about Church of Ireland national schools and the concerns in that regard as outlined by the Archbishop of Dublin. I am sure the Minister for Education and Skills will address that issue when he attends the House next week to deal with legislation.

Senator Ó Murchú spoke about the role of community organisations. To the best of my knowledge, we had a debate in this House on volunteerism not too long ago. I agree with the Senator that community organisations and volunteers are the life blood of communities throughout the country. We would welcome any suggestions which Senator Ó Murchú has on the subject. I will try to arrange for a further debate on that matter.

Senator Quinn's contribution was on the same theme, namely, we have heroes in every community. We look forward to seeing the local heroes programme on RTE. Senator Landy raise the issue of sustainable energy and grants. The Senator made the good point that there is no measurement of BER before works take place. That is a serious matter. There should be measurement before works take place.

Terry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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That is not correct. Measurement takes place before and after works.

Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader, without interruption, please.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I am addressing the question raised by Senator Landy. It would a serious problem if there was not measurement before and after works. There is not much point measuring afterwards because it will not be possible to determine of what benefit the work has been. It is a matter which can be raised with the Minister. I am sure he will be interested to hear what the Senator has to say.

Senator Ó Clochartaigh spoke about the need for better relations with Norway. As it stands, we have excellent relations and linkages with Norway. Norway has excellent educational and other facilities. It also has enormous gas and oil reserves, which helps in some small way in the provision of those facilities. Senator O'Sullivan spoke about the contribution of the retail sector in communities. We all acknowledge that the retail sector is currently experiencing a difficult time. Competition has hit some of the smaller shops hard. We are all aware of the effect of the recession, in terms of spending power, on the retail sector in our communities and throughout the country.

Senator Mary Ann O'Brien raised the important issue of the agency workers directive. I am sure her comments and reservations in regard to this directive would be welcomed by the relevant committee dealing with this issue. The Senator should, before a decision is made on that directive, make known her reservations to the relevant committee and Department. The Senator stated that the directive will create problems for many employers throughout the country.

Maurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Yes. Senator Gilroy spoke about a man suffering muscular dystrophy. That matter could, and probably should, be raised on the Adjournment. I will take up the matter with the Minister.

Senator Bradford called for a debate on the CAP proposals. I agree with the Senator's comments. I have been in contact with the Minister and he is agreeable to attend the House next month to deal with that matter.

I wish to advise Members that the Seanad will deal next Tuesday with the Welfare of Greyhounds Bill and will debate the Keane report on Wednesday. I remind Members that the debate on the Keane report has been arranged at short notice at the request of several Members. I suggest that our time with the Minister should be used wisely. Rather than discussing the positives or negatives of the report, Senators should put forward concrete policy proposals for consideration. I am aware that several Members have proposals in this regard, which we welcome. We are all agreed that this is a serious issue. It is hoped that the Seanad can assist in a positive way in broadening the discussion and in developing a policy that will assist those in need in this regard.