James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)

I thank all of the Senators very much. I had a prepared speech but I am going to set it aside because it would be far more useful to reply to the contributions made in the course of the debate and to engage with the different points that were made. There was a lot of commonality in the contributions, which makes that easier.

I thank Senator Dee Ryan for the reminder that Donogh O'Malley was from Limerick. I have no doubt that the Senator will also go on to great things in the fields of education and politics. Donogh O'Malley led the way, followed by Lemass and Whitaker. That was the beginning of the construction of the knowledge economy we so rightly prize today. Senator Ryan also made a number of points regarding the National Training Fund, as did many other speakers. Senator Paul Daly met with the IUA and other stakeholders and the point was reaffirmed that it is imperative to invest in infrastructure and to implement Funding the Future, the Government response to the Cassells report. I am doing that through the National Training Fund. A Bill in that regard passed Second Stage in the Dáil just last week and will now move swiftly to Committee Stage. I expect it will make its way here in the near future. That is very important and it is something we are very much working on.

I will pass Senator Joe Conway's regards on to my mother. She was my original educator and also worked in education for many years. It is good to hear that she and the Senator have that friendship. With regard to apprentices in the councils, I heard the story the Senator told regarding Waterford City and County Council. He was rightly shocked that there were no apprentices at the time he inquired. We have an action plan for apprenticeships in the public sector. We should lead by example. If we are going to encourage and call upon private companies to hire apprentices, we need to be doing the same. We have an action plan as to how to do that, which I brought to Cabinet just recently. It is growing and we are getting there but we have a long way to go. There are a number of apprentices in my own Department, including a digital marketing apprentice. As the Senator rightly said, there are now many different types of apprenticeships across many fields that might not even have been considered many years ago. That is certainly coming through. The Senator also referred to underfunding in respect of the backlog at phases 2 and 4 of apprenticeships. That is being addressed. I have worked that through. Clearing that backlog did require additional funding but it is now progressing.

Senator Kennelly welcomed the permanent reduction in fees. I thank him for that. It is certainly very positive. It is permanent and is now constant in the baseline forevermore. A number of Senators asked about where we go next. As I said in a recent press conference, there is no limit to my ambition but there is a limit to my resources. I will make a general comment across the board. We have heard various calls, all of which I agree with. We must honour the pay deals that have been negotiated. We are also talking about Funding the Future, research and innovation funding, student accommodation, increasing grants and thresholds, disabilities and mental health. These are all things I have addressed in this budget. I will go as far as I can on the fees each year but there is a significant cost to doing that. This year, when I had less than €300 million in new money, €110 million would have been expended on a €1,000 reduction. What should have I cancelled? Would it have been the mental health measures, which cost €1 million? Would it have been the changes to the thresholds, the targeted maintenance grants, the pay deal, Funding the Future or student accommodation? There are choices. Every choice has an opportunity cost associated with it.

This budget was the first of what I hope to be a five-year term. I will work to expand on these measures every year and to make college more affordable but I firmly believe this should be done through a combination of measures. We need targeted interventions such as the maintenance grants, raising the thresholds and increasing funding for students with disabilities as well as universal measures such as fees cuts. I say these are universal but really they affect middle- and higher-income families because lower-income families do not pay fees at all because they are covered by SUSI. That is particularly true now, when the threshold is up to €120,000. Some families that would have paid €2,000 last year will get paid €2,000 because the thresholds have gone up. A family with an income of €119,000 will have the €500 permanent cut that is there for everybody but they will also have the new €500 fee grant because the threshold is €120,000. This year, that family is paying €2,000, which is the same as they did last year. They are getting there in a different way. There is a different sum to get there.

I would like to do a number of other things, some of which we discussed in this House last year. Earlier in the year, Senator Dee Ryan brought up larger families where there are multiple siblings in college at one time. There is a number of other things I am working on and trying to pilot but some of them take time to process. It takes time to design the policy intervention and get it through. In short, there is a number of things I would like to do around student supports next year, the year after and for as long as I continue to serve. I welcome the engagement from this House and from the Members because it is in these exchanges that we come up with ideas.

A few colleagues mentioned the abolition of fees. That is not in the programme for Government. The programme for Government, which is my bible and guides everything I do, talks about a continued reduction, which I have started this year. That does not mean we will not get there. I cannot look forward to the next five years because we do not know what the fiscal situation will be. We do not know what kind of shocks or black swans will arise. We had three black swans in the last five years. Nobody could have predicted that. In the last Government, the Minister, Deputy Foley, brought in free schoolbooks and free school meals. They were not in the programme for Government so, just because it is not there, it does not mean it cannot be done. The yardstick I work to is the programme for Government, which commits to a continued reduction. It also commits to continuing to increase targeted measures such as those I have spoken about, SUSI grants, the thresholds and so forth. Among the other points Senator Kennelly made, he raised SOLAS and apprenticeships. I have addressed that backlog and secured additional funding to clear it.

To respond to Senator Tully, I mentioned fees. We talked about the ambition in that regard a minute ago, although the fiscal reality is that we can only do so much. Every euro we spend on one thing is a euro we cannot spend on something else. On student accommodation, as the Senator rightly said, we do not need bells and whistles and frills in every single student accommodation development. We need to make them more affordable. I completely agree. In June, I published the student design guide. That provides a template. It is based on architectural consultation. It is on a par with Oxbridge, the Ivy League in the United States and the Nordic universities. It is no way a yellow-label solution. It is a practical solution that seeks to optimise the number of bed spaces and things like shared lounge spaces and common areas. The output is high-quality but there is a standardised design, which should make it more efficient for developers, builders and architects to get to work and maximise the number of beds available. That is very important. In addition, 30% of those beds are ring-fenced for SUSI recipients. That is important for equity.

A number of people mentioned the borrowing framework. I am working on that. To be honest, there is a challenge around that because, under legislation and the statutory framework, a traditional university can borrow off its own balance sheet but, because of how the legislation is structured, technological universities borrow on the State books, which brings EU state aid rules into play. Various different qualifications go with that. Approval is needed from the Departments of Finance and public expenditure. Other checks and balances get loaded onto that. It is more difficult. It is something I am acutely aware of. I have probably met all of the presidents of the TUs. I am working with my colleagues, the Ministers for Finance and public expenditure, to advance a proposal. I hope to see progress on that very soon, by the end of the year. It is not simple, however. I ask the Members to bear with me on that and to be conscious of the issues.

On the Irish language, I attended BIPA on Monday last week and met some Welsh colleagues who talked about the work they had done on the Welsh language. It is a good model to follow and it is something I will be engaging on with the committee on the Irish language.

On North-South interactions, just yesterday the Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive, Caoimhe Archibald, and I jointly launched the first all-island apprenticeship with Accounting Technicians Ireland. I was proud to be able to do that. It is a 32-county model. The learning outcomes, curriculums and examination process are synchronised across the whole island. I hope to do a lot more of that. That is the first of many. We also fund a number of research projects through the shared island initiative on an all-island basis.

Senator Harmon spoke about Funding the Future. I reiterate my commitment to that. The National Training Fund legislation has now gone through Second Stage in the Dáil. That is coming through. I have also commissioned research on the impacts of different student support interventions. It is very useful to get that feedback, whether on fees, grants, more innovative measures.

Under apprenticeships, Senator Cosgrove spoke to the cost of equipment. In this year's budget, I have allocated a relatively small amount of money, €500,000, for a pilot around equipment placement for students or apprentices who have to purchase a lab coat, a tool or an instrument or who have to spend a week in the Gaeltacht. There are all sorts of things people have to do. There is a small amount of money there for a pilot scheme to look at the needs students have, the different expenses that arise and whether there is an equitable way we can provide funding to those who need it most. That is something I am very mindful of.I have also commissioned a piece of research on the impact of different interventions so that we can understand as many levers that we can more around the cost of education, what levers are the most appropriate and what will deliver which results.

On the sex for rent Bill. I am familiar with that and the work of the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan. When I was chair of the committee, we did a piece of work on that. It is important that this is tackled.

Senator Cosgrove spoke to the apprenticeship piece and the borrowing framework.

I know Senator Alice Mary Higgins is gone now, but I listened to her with interest. I met the South African Minister Manamela and his delegation. I had them in my office at the time. I also met his counterpart, the Minister for innovation, when I was in South Africa for G20 recently. It was a very good interaction. Senator Higgins made a good point about needing space and time to think innovation through in terms of research. It comes dropping slowly. The point was well made. I note the points made about Horizon as well.

I thank Senator Paul Daly for his comments and support. There were some hairy moments. In any Department, there always will be. I do my very best to deliver the best package with the resources available to me, which, unfortunately, are finite. The NTF Bill is going through, as are the apprenticeships. He made a really good point about timetabling. We talk about utilisation of facilities. If we have labs, ETB buildings and apprenticeship schools, they are sitting idle for half the day or for one of the days. My own daughter recently graduated. There is often one class on a Friday for an hour. Students may be commuting 90 minutes each way to get up and down for that one-hour class. Students may be juggling a part-time job as well, not to mention going to the library and all the other things such as having a social life. It is a real issue and I am going to commission a piece of work into the utilisation to see if we can do better.

Senator Scahill talked about the 1,100 additional places and dentistry, and he is right. I was very pleased last week to be able to visit RCSI and I have funded it for 35 additional places in dentistry. It uses a particular model there where the trainee dentist gets going on week two or week three on actual dummies and mannequins, unlike traditional models where it is all book learning for year one or two and then going to year three. It is a different way of delivering it. It is a very modern school there. I was delighted to be able to fund that and support it in that. We need to continue that across other fields. I would be happy to visit GRETB with the Senator. I was in Mervue at the start of the summer. I know the Minister of State, Deputy Harkin, has been down as well. I would be happy to take up that invitation at some stage.

Senator McCarthy is gone, but I am very familiar with his work. I visited a school in the Trinity access programme just last week for maths week. The school is in challenged circumstances in the Pearse Street area. I met some of the students and talked about maths and maths week. We did some kind of maths magic, which is a fun way to engage their minds in it. I recognise Senator McCarthy's work. He mentioned the Bobinac twins. I know them both. I met them at the Senator's various functions locally, but they are a really great example of how education can lift all and really elevate. They are wonderful young men doing really great work.

I thank Senator Martin Conway for his contribution. I have increased the fund for students with disabilities by €3 million this year. I am delighted to be able to do that. There is different additional funding that goes with the rest of it. I often think of David Blunkett, who was a Labour Party Secretary of State in the UK. He travelled by train to Westminster from his constituency of Sheffield every week. What was really remarkable was that he went on to be Home Secretary and a number of things. He was visually impaired.