Gerard Craughwell (Independent)

The Minister's ears are probably being burnt off him at this stage. We have a serious problem, and this amendment will actually make it worse. We have talked about the article in the Irish Independent today. It quotes sources from An Garda Síochána. Why is there not a criminal investigation today into the source that leaked that story to the Irish Independent? Journalists, without ever naming a politician, can destroy a career in the way they write stories. Claims to have seen files or evidence can be printed without any evidence that it is true. Members of An Garda Síochána who serve this State with honour, and they have done so for over 100 years, advertise frequently, asking people to come forward to confidential lines in order to provide evidence where a crime has been committed. Who in their right mind would come forward with evidence knowing there is a fear that their name would be released and a fear that the evidence they would provide would be released? That is one problem we have.

People often say to those who feel they have been defamed, "Well, you can go to the courts." It is not that easy to go to the courts, and there is risk in every court case you will ever take. As my colleague Michael McDowell has said, there are now only three things you have to satisfy: one, that what you published was in the public interest; two, that you believed it was in the public interest; and, finally, that you published it in good faith. How do I prove, how does the Minister prove or how does any Minister or Senator or county councillor or priest or teacher prove that a journalist did not act in good faith? I had experience some years ago of a teacher who had been alleged to have carried out a sexual assault on a student. After a period of investigation, the student came forward and said that, actually nothing had happened. They just did not like him. When the teacher sought a timetable to go back into his classroom, he was told they were not really happy about that because there is no smoke without fire. The man had been exonerated but there was no smoke without fire.

We have seen a plethora of publications in this country based on innuendo. Imagine what that will change to if this legislation passes. The Minister himself made the comment about the two people in a pub talking. It was in an earlier part of the debate. Senator McDowell was referring to the Boeing aircraft and two people saying they are dangerous aircraft. Boeing is not going to go after them. A journalist sitting there now may well say, "Joe Bloggs said", and Joe Bloggs may happen to be a very wealthy man so Boeing might just go after him for the hell of it. Why not? Many times I have sat in company, as I am sure the Minister has, when somebody has stated a fact that is totally untrue and that everybody sitting around the table knows is untrue but the person making the statement is doing so with such conviction that they know it is an absolute fact, but of course it is not a fact. We see it on social media every day of the week. I am delighted I have been Twitter-free for three weeks now. I will never go back to it because it is a horrible cesspit full of people who will say things with impunity, destroy people's lives and cause people to sit up at night worrying over things that are said. It is a horrible place.

I plead with the Minister not to proceed with this amendment and to come back with another amendment on Report Stage and let us all work together to get this through and get to where he wants to go with it. As Senator McDowell has said, if this goes through, it will take God knows what to reverse it.

I say to the Minister, and he is Minister for justice and we now have a new Garda Commissioner, whom I met recently, a fine policeman with great service to the State, we have to plug the holes and stop journalists attributing to Garda sources stories they publish. I believe our gardaí are above that. If there are one or two bad apples in the Garda, as my colleague Senator Conway said, let us weed them the hell out of the place and stop the constant attack on people in public life. If we go ahead with this, I am afraid we will see during every election campaign innuendo with names attached to it. It will be no longer "sources close to" or "Minister such-and-such" or "Deputy such-and-such"; it will be "source told me that John Murphy was A, B, C and D", and that is John Murphy then having to explain, and we all know in this House and in the Lower House that when you are explaining, you are losing. We have to be extremely careful about that. I ask the Minister to do as I ask. I will not delay him any longer myself; he has had a good airing.