Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)

I listened to the Senators very carefully and I thank them for their contributions. I will try to respond to the points they raised but if I miss a point, I apologise. Senator Gallagher asked a couple of succinct questions. He asked how many people have sought international protection in Ireland to date this year. The answer is 6,000 in the first six months of the year. It was considerably lower than last year. In 2024, 18,500 people sought international protection in Ireland, while in 2022 and 2023, the figure was 13,500. Looking at the figures, I believe that this year's figure will be lower than in 2022, 2023 and 2024. The Senator also asked how many applications had been processed this year. The answer is 9,475. Of those applications, 81% were refused or ruled inadmissible. The Senator asked what the turnaround time was. I want to see a turnaround time of three months between the hearing of the application at the IPO and the determination on appeal in the second instance. The IPO has become considerably faster. It is very efficient. I need to introduce the same efficiencies into the appeals board. In the past couple of weeks, I have appointed 36 new members to the International Protection Appeals Tribunal, which will have the effect of speeding it up.

Bhí mé ag éisteacht leis an Seanadóir Conway. Dúirt sé go bhfuil Éire in áit cosúil le "Tadhg an dá thaobh". That is a bit unfair. We have an option in terms of Protocol No. 21, which was agreed many years ago, whereby we could opt in to justice and home affairs matters if we decided to. Some Members have asked what we are doing about sovereignty. This is us exercising Irish sovereignty. The elected Members of this House and the Lower House are making a determination as to whether we opt in to these measures, and I am asking them to permit opting in under Article 3.

Senators Kelleher and Byrne made contributions in respect of the immigration and asylum processes. There is no doubt that immigration has served this country well but when it comes to immigration, we also need to recognise that we have to have rules. No country in the world has an immigration system that does not have rules. All I am trying to do is achieve a controlled immigration system. Asylum is a small part of the immigration system. Tens of thousands of people come to Ireland every year on work permits, thousands come to Ireland each year on student visas, thousands come for holidays and individuals come seeking international protection. No matter what element it comes under, we have to have rules to respond to it.

Senator Nicole Ryan's main criticism was that we should be opting in to all these measures under Article 4 as opposed to Article 3. It is traditionally the case that we do opt in under Article 4 but the advantage of opting in under Article 3 of Protocol No. 21 is that we are then able to become part of the discussions and negotiations that lead to the finalisation of the legislative measure. If we opt in under Article 4, as the Senator advocated, the measure is made and we either opt in to it or not. We would not participate in the making of it. She asked why we are handing over this power to designate safe countries to the EU. We are not. We would still retain the power under section 72 and in the new Bill, which will also provide for it, to designate countries as safe countries. I as Minister can designate whatever countries I believe it is appropriate to designate as safe. Parallel to that will be an EU system where the EU will designate countries. There will be many overlaps, as we have seen, but the real benefit of it is that if the EU has designated a country as a safe country, it will be much easier for Ireland to designate that country as a safe country because there will be widespread recognition within the EU that it is accepted. I also think that since we have a harmonised asylum system within the EU, it would be unusual, as exists at present, that some countries are designated by some countries as safe while other countries are not designated as safe by another country. There is a benefit to having a harmonised response. The same point applies to safe third countries.

Senator Ryan also spoke about temporary protection. I know what the Sinn Féin policy is. Everyone in the EU, including Ireland, recognises that temporary protection must come to an end. Had the Sinn Féin policy been implemented, Ireland would just have pulled out of temporary protection, which would have had extraordinary consequences for Ireland. First, as I said in my opening remarks, the 87,000 Ukrainians who are here would immediately apply for international protection so, as opposed to having 6,000 people applying for international protection this year, we would be up to over 90,000. Any termination of temporary protection, which will happen, has to be done on a harmonised basis with the EU, which is why this is being proposed.

I listened to what Senator Cosgrove said about a Rwanda-style policy. That is not the intention of the Government but it is the case that there are countries that are safe. Georgia is a safe country. I am being careful about how I say this, but just because parts of a country may be unsafe does not mean that people from that country have an entitlement to come here and claim international protection. The benefit of a safe designation is that it speeds up the process. It expedites it. Everyone's application is still considered but it is done on an expedited basis. The Senator mentioned the persecution of gay people in Türkiye. Assessments have been done of Türkiye in terms of democracy, but it is not feasible for Ireland to say it has a responsibility to accept every gay person in Türkiye. That is just not feasible.

I noted what Senator Davitt said. Senator Higgins spoke about the benefits of migration. I agree with her about the benefits of migration but, again, I insist that we must have a controlled system. She was correct in identifying that conflict has caused migration, but look at the reason there has been the greatest level of migration to Ireland in recent years on the basis of asylum. It is Russian aggression in Ukraine. As a result of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, 116,000 people have arrived from Ukraine. I think the number is now below 90,000. That is what triggered that. The Senator also mentioned climate change and was critical of the safe countries concept. I recognise the responsibility that I and the Irish State have when it comes to considering asylum applications.We are very liberal and fair when we are looked at in a European context and we do take into account the rights of the applicant, but there is a balance to this. As well as taking into account the rights of the applicant, we have to take into account the rights of the State and its right to be entitled to have a controlled migration system.

Senator Higgins also spoke about deportation flights. The reason we have deportation flights is because it is in the public interest to have them. It reveals that we have a controlled migration and immigration system. If we have a system where no matter who comes in, whether they succeed or fail in their application to stay, we say that it does not matter and they can all stay, why are we spending billions on a system for the IPO, IPAS and accommodation? We might as well just say that everyone can stay. It is about the public interest and having a controlled migration system. I am trying to do it in as humane a way as possible but I am not going to abandon my responsibilities simply because there are parts of the job that are probably unpleasant.

With regard to the removal of the return measure, the reason that is being done is because there are further discussions in respect of it. We will have ultimate control on whether we decide to opt into it. As I said, we will be back in respect of an Article 4 opt-in.

Senator Ryan talked about how we are ceding power to the EU. That is not correct. One thing that is apparent from recent history is that when you look at the UK, they left the European Union on the basis that they thought that, by leaving the EU, they would be able to resolve what was predominantly an immigration issue they faced. They have not. Their issues in respect of immigration have become considerably worse since they left. That is why it is important there is a broad and harmonised European response.

I note what Senator Keogan said as well with regard to what is needed in terms of border control. It is correct to say that very many people claiming international protection are coming in across the Border with Northern Ireland. Unfortunately, the policy advanced by Aontú is not achievable. I cannot, nor can any Minister, Tánaiste, Taoiseach or anyone in this Government, achieve an Irish Sea border when it comes to this issue. It may be something for the future but we cannot achieve it now.