Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal East, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Leas-Chathaoirleach agus déanaim comhghairdeas léi as ucht a poist nua. Go n-éirí an t-ádh léi. I thank the Senators and it is a pleasure to be here this evening on Committee Stage of this Bill. The reason this Bill is on Committee Stage is that, as the Senators who sponsored the Bill will know, the timed amendment has elapsed and the Government is not opposing this Bill on Committee Stage. There is no mechanism to do so. There is a significant amount of work to be done.

I will address a couple of issues. I will preface my remarks by saying that nobody in this House - no Oireachtas Member whom I know - is not absolutely horrified by what is happening in Gaza and the West Bank through Israel's disproportionate and brutal actions. Tens of thousands of people have been murdered, have been killed by the IDF. That has been articulated by members of the Government, including the Taoiseach, right the way through, just as it was by the previous Government. It is important that we condemn outright the brutal attack by Hamas on Israel, the savage murder of innocent civilians and the taking of hostages. That also has to be condemned outright. I know all Senators here share my view on that.

I will make one general point. The idea that the Irish State has done nothing, or is standing by doing nothing, is not correct at all. During my time in the Oireachtas since 2007, we have had many debates and discussions, unfortunately, on the problems in the Middle East and in particular with regard to Israel. As a result of the failure of previous peace accords and the failure to move forward with the two-state solution, we are now seeing a situation where it is hardly possible to see what viable Palestinian state could exist at this stage, unfortunately, with these actions still continuing. The Israeli bombardment of Gaza, the continued attack on the West Bank and the continued expansion of settlements are all to be roundly condemned. I have done so and Government colleagues have done so. We have done more than that, actually. The idea from some of the commentary this evening is that the Government has done nothing. That is not correct. We have rightly recognised the State of Palestine. We now have a Palestinian ambassador in Ireland. We joined the South African case when many others thought we were not going to do so. We had to follow process. In my opinion, and I respect all the Senators who have spoken, it is not correct to say that our State is complicit in some way, shape or form. We are not, in my view. We have been really clear and our people have been really clear in our condemnation of Israel's continued bombardment of Gaza and continued grabbing of land in the West Bank.

I will put a couple of items on the record of the House because there have been points made with regard to the increase in exemptions. I am not saying that speakers were trying to link them but there has been a correlation between the events of 7 October and further increases in exemptions. There was the initial Hamas attack on Israel and the completely disproportionate Israeli response.There has been some correlation drawn about an increase in applications and exemptions. I have looked into the detail of these as well. The applications for exemptions predominantly fall into two categories, and some Senators have mentioned this. They include US civil air operators contracted to carry US military personnel with unloaded personal-issue weapons that require exemption if they operate in Irish sovereign territory, including overflights - that is one major part - at 33,000 to 35,000 ft, and scheduled flights in Europe by Irish-registered aircraft operating outside of Ireland. Senator Craughwell has mentioned, and he is correct, that if you look at Ireland being a world leader in aircraft leasing and the registration of aircraft that could be flying between France and Norway but are registered Irish, exemptions would be sought by some airlines because of the existing legislation that is in place. They are not coming through our airspace in any way, shape or form.

I understand completely the motivations of the Senators who authored the Bill but there are legitimate questions to be asked, such as if this Bill were passed as it is, how we could enforce it. I also note the specific mention of one particular country. We have a regime that deals with all armaments that fly through or land and fly on to other destinations. There is a regime in place, and the Senators know the existing legislation that is in place, but there would be a genuine concern about how this provision, if this legislation were passed as it is, could be implemented. It would put a legal obligation on the State to do something it cannot do.

Something I take very seriously, and I say this as Minister for Transport, having been in the House for one previous debate in this role but also with my other Department, is that any allegations of breaching the law in Ireland on the transit of weapons are being investigated. I take them very seriously. Exemptions are granted in the main and the manner I have said. We have seen the incidence of the carrying of munitions decrease between 2022 and 2023 and it remained relatively static between 2023 and 2024. There was an increase of ten exemptions in 2024 according to the most up-to-date figures I have.

There are other matters within the legislation. People talk about weapons going to Israel. Since October 2023, no exemptions have been applied for or granted for the carriage of munitions of war destined for a point in Israel as such. It is unlikely that the first automatic refusal would ever be implemented based on what I have here at the moment.

There are certainly questions of enforceability and there are other issues. Department officials have looked through the Bill. The former Minister, former Deputy Ryan, my predecessor, sought a timed amendment on this to allow further examination of the legislation. That is under way. I know at this stage the Committee Stage will pass, with Report and Final Stages scheduled for another time. I cannot see a situation right now where the Bill, as currently constructed, could be implemented or supported in its current guise by the Government. I want to be very clear with Senators on that. That is not a criticism of the motivations for bringing forward that Bill. It simply relates to the legality of the Bill, in that it provides that exemptions must not be granted if any of the three conditions provided for are met. These relate to items destined for Israel, items with a significant likelihood of being deployed by Israel, and applications made where items are destined for or coming from a country which exports similar items. There is a lack of clarity and overlapping across different pieces of legislation which could prevent provisions in this section from achieving the intended objective. No one wants munitions. There has been no application for munitions landed in Ireland with a destination point in Israel. We have to be straight and honest with people.

Senator Clonan has mentioned the reality of the size of our own sphere of influence and our own airspace and how one could even monitor and police that. Exemptions are sought from time to time. They are published. Details of the number of exemptions that are granted are published and the refusal rate is published. I have outlined here to the Seanad that we have not seen a significant increase between 2023 and 2024. All of them are looked at. They come up to the relevant section and would be looked at where an issue is flagged. The reason for a refusal would be strongly considered by me as Minister. I see no reason to grant an exemption for any munitions to be transported through Ireland to Israel but there is a reality about how one could actually enforce this legislation if it were passed as it is. The exemptions granted by the Department of Transport relate to access to Irish sovereign territory and do not relate to the final destination of the cargo or its ultimate end user as it is currently constructed.

With regard to inspections of aircraft, there is an onerous regime being put forward. You have to look at the resourcing of any regime such as that. We do have the ability to do that within existing legislative provisions. That has not been invoked. It has not been necessary to invoke that heretofore but the legal framework exists in this country for that very thing to happen should we believe it needs to happen. There is a reality as well, however, that when you look at the exemptions that have been sought, the vast majority of them, generally speaking, are in the two categories I have outlined to the House.

The Bill, as currently constructed, will not be opposed by the Government procedurally on Committee Stage. The Senators have authored the Bill. I understand the motivation behind it but I think it would be next to near impossible to be able to enforce the legal provisions the Senators would be asking of the State. We also have to be honest as to what level of this existing framework really is the level of munitions coming through Ireland that we could inspect, or dual-use items, as the Senators mentioned. We have an existing legal regime. That needs to be used to its fullest and our current legislation does provide for the inspection of civil aircraft where there is an appearance or a likelihood that it will depart Ireland and contravene Irish law. We have strong provisions in place. Where allegations are made, in whatever publications or if Senators have specific information with regard to flights that landed in Ireland and were transporting munitions, they should be brought forward. Allegations that have been already made in the media are being actively investigated.

Where I want to be clear with Senators as well is that the Bill as it is currently constructed would not be, in my view, fit to be passed. It would not, as it is right now, be something we could permit to go forward any further. We have to look at the regime that would have to support the new regulations or the new law that is put in place. There are other items I will get officials to engage with Senators on regarding where there might be some perceived legal contradictions. That is not a criticism. They have looked through it from the previous Oireachtas to now. I can certainly ensure the sponsoring Senators and the authors of the legislation could meet with officials in that regard as well. We can correspond with them and highlight where those points are.

I thank the Senators for their contributions so far. I am sorry to interject; I know there are other Senators who wish to speak. The reason I wanted to speak is that the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, is coming in at 6.30 p.m. for the remainder of the debate. I could only attend for the first hour. That is why I wanted to make my remarks and put them on the floor of the House. As I said, we will correspond further with Senators regarding the items that have already been looked at and where we would see significant legal difficulties with the legislation as currently constructed.