Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

With the exception of our esteemed colleague Senator McDowell, we are all approaching this Bill and the legalities of it as lay people. My interpretation of this provision, as a layperson, is somewhat different from that of my colleagues. I interpret the practical legality as being that a soldier, of whatever rank, can be active and vocal within PDFORRA or RACO. That is a given. I interpret it as implicit in the legislation that soldiers can be active in their community and in all the voluntary organisations, social and cultural, within those communities. Those things are implicit. Senator Clonan puts everything so eloquently and with passion. However, his analogy with the Judiciary does not stack up in that the Constitution legislates, as it were, for the separation of powers. That is implicit. No judge can be party political, no garda can be political or political in the broad sense, except privately, nor can a member of the Defence Forces.

It would not be helpful to enter into an argument with Senator McDowell on legalities. I am interested in the views of the Tánaiste and his officials on this point. I refer to the Senator's example, which he gave in good faith and with a lot of academic and other knowledge behind it. I would have thought the gay soldier in his example could express himself within a gay society or organisation.Where I think it would stop is that the gay soldier could not, in uniform, march with something that was calling for a change in law per sethat was in contradiction with the Government. They could not do that. However, he could participate in his gay organisations and have a view and he could express and explain what it was like for a gay soldier in the armed forces.

I would be interested in a response on that. No one is questioning the thesis that we should have a Defence Forces. All of us in this room have great regard for the Defence Forces and for the people in it. I share that regard. We really depend on them. Tragically we are coming to a time when they are, and will, come into greater focus. We live in very dreadful times on an international and geopolitical level. However, leaving that aside, we all respect our armed forces personnel greatly. None of us is questioning the thesis that they should be independent, or rather, non-political in the fullest sense of that term but that they have the freedom to be active in every cultural and social community organisation and active in whatever it might be whether it is water schemes, residents associations, cultural organisations such as Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann and in their gay groupings, if that be the case. I would have thought one could actively participate in all those things and have views in them and take positions in them. However, what this precludes is activity in party politics or involvement in public marches and them in uniform and identifiable as soldiers. To be honest, I think that is how it should be. Someone gave a great example last week about the Middle East. I do not know who it was and it might have been the Minister himself. You could not have soldiers in uniform, given that they are out there as peacekeepers, on the streets of Dublin taking part in uniform or identifiably speaking at rallies, whether the rally is supporting any particular section in the Middle East. My layperson's view, which I advance as a practical view of this, is that this allows a soldier every virtual freedom except to be political and that is implicit in their taking the job. I do not think any soldier really wants to become political because they understand their role in the Constitution and in our defence. They have a superior role in this like the Garda and the Judiciary. One of the greatest things we have in this country is an independent Defence Force of which we are proud and which is not party political or political and they are not out marching on the streets. They now have the right to go into industrial relations. They can participate in their organisations and they can participate culturally.

My distinguished colleague, Senator Wilson, for whom I have immense personal regard made a point and I would be interested to hear the response to this. I would have thought there would be nothing to preclude them being on the board of the credit union or going to the Minister for Finance in that capacity with a group of credit union board members. That is my view but I am very conscious that I am a layperson and I make no pretensions to be otherwise on this.