Victor Boyhan (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister. This is an important Bill that is designed to give legislative effect to a new jobseeker's pay-related benefit for newly unemployed jobseekers. It is about many other things too, but I will not dwell on those. I just want to acknowledge this because it is really important. Sometimes when we look at legislation, we tend to look at things about which we might have a concern and we do not dwell on some of the positives. While I cannot speak about everything in the Bill in the short time that we have, I do want to acknowledge the Minister’s reforming zeal, which is without doubt.

When I looked at PRSI and what it stands for, I was struck by the fact that there will have to be an increase. You get nothing for nothing, as the old adage goes. I am also thinking of the commentary that has taken place about USC in the past week. I am not asking the Minister to speak about USC, but I remind her and all her colleagues in government of the billboards all over this country that promised with great fanfare that the Government was going to abolish USC. We all know of the cost of USC, which was bought in during a time of need. Times have changed, however. I am not going to ask the Minister about it, which would not be right because it is not what we are discussing here today. However, I say to those of all parties and none who are hatching plans for the forthcoming general election that when they make a commitment to the people about something like abolishing USC, they need to focus on that. This is certainly a matter on which I will focus in the coming months in the run-up to the general election. This was a really important promise and commitment. We need to look at USC again. More importantly, we need to look at the individuals who ran that campaign and made commitments to the people about it. We need to ask if there is a possibility of a merger of the two. That would move some people away form the idea of abolition. Anyway, enough of that. That was just a little rant I wanted to engage in because I have a view on the matter.

I have read the explanatory memorandum to the Bill. I know exactly what the Minister is trying to achieve. I am generally supportive of it. I want to touch on something in the explanatory memorandum, which states:

PART 3

Amendment to Principal Act relevant to Jobseeker’s Pay-Related Benefit

Amendment of section 62 of Principal Act

Section 9 inserts a new subsection (12) into section 62 of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act to provide for amendments to the entitlement rules for Jobseeker’s Benefit required subsequent to the introduction of Jobseeker’s Pay-Related Benefit.

Under this section, the Minister may, with the consent of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, make regulations to provide for the closure of the Jobseeker’s Benefit scheme and the cessation of payments made under that scheme to persons who become eligible for Jobseeker’s Pay-Related Benefit support as it becomes available. In making regulations under this section, the Minister(s) will take into consideration factors including the person’s age, type, nature, duration and pattern of employment, the nature of the employer, typical employment patterns in the sector the person is normally employed, the extent to which a person has lost earnings/income, their level of employment, prior benefit and the reason for the unemployment.

I read that exactly word for word from the explanatory memorandum. It is also clearly set out in the Bill. I have a few questions that the Minister might be able to deal with.Am I to take it that this is a flat-rate payment? I do not think it is a flat-rate payment. On that basis, therefore, how is that worked out? I understand from reading the legislation that this will be taxable at some rate. The Minister might confirm that. I presume it depends on the level of the amount a person is getting based on his or her own particular set of tax circumstances. The Minister might touch on that. How is the clawback or repayment of that worked out? Is that deducted at source? I simply do not know that. I could not quite decipher that. Is it proposed from this payment, because a person is liable for tax, the tax is taken at source or is it like the pandemic unemployment payment, PUP, where something might have to be paid back? I do not quite understand that. The Minister might enlighten us in that regard. We know it is tax deductible. We confirmed it is taxable. I think the Minister indicated that by the nod of her head. I thank her for that. How then is it taxed? Is it taxed at source or is it a lump sum payment back? I will close on that. I am generally supportive.

Clearly, if people are on jobseeker's allowance, it is important that they are retrained, supported and encouraged to get back into the workplace. We have far too many able people, particularly young people, who are on long-term benefits and who are not in employment. It is not good for people not to be doing something and, therefore, we should encourage courses that are meaningful and employment that is meaningful albeit part-time. Work is good for us. Work is good for people and good for society and they must be supported. However, there will always be people who, for whatever reason, and the Minister knows this more than anyone, there is black and white and there is grey. There are certain people who for an array of reasons cannot fully get employment. Again, we should be channelling them where possible and where practical with some supports. As I said, I believe in the importance of work and the dignity of work. That is really important to support. At the same time, we have to be seen to be vigilant for those who are working and are lucky enough to have employment and who are paying their taxes and for the contributions people pay for through PRSI for the social benefits for the greater good, which is also an important part of our citizenship and our engagement. It is important that systems are fair and robust to scrutiny and respect the people in the process. However, we can no longer be carrying people who do not wish to engage and do not wish to contribute to society. If the truth of it be known, we all know some of them somewhere. It is not a witch hunt; it is about support, recognition of the dignity of work and the fairness of our resources and tax systems. I genuinely wish the Minister well. She might touch on the taxation aspect of the legislation and the rates as envisaged.