Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I am only about a quarter of a page in, so for the benefit of the Minister of State, I will start again. I am sure I will not use my ten minutes anyway. I thank the Minister for Defence and his acting Minister on defence, Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill, who is very welcome.

I am pleased to be able to speak to this. I am speaking on behalf of Senator Wilson, who is our Seanad defence spokesperson and has a son serving in the Army, so he is very involved with the topic.I would not speak on this area too often but I am glad to be here to speak on this Bill and, indeed, raise the concerns of Senator Wilson and others about the Bill as it is currently proposed.

I think it is fair for me to say that we do not debate defence matters often enough in this House. It is a valid criticism of public policy that we do not discuss national defence or defence policy sufficiently often. One of the consequences of this lack of attention is the depleted numbers and sagging morale we see in our Defence Forces today. However, I hope that we can all agree there is still much work to be done and can be thankful that there is a comprehensive plan for the revitalisation of our Defence Forces via the recommendations made in February 2022 by the Commission on the Defence Forces. The recommendations give us a clear route map for repairing the current retention challenges and creating an Óglaigh na hÉireann that is truly fit to meet the security challenges of today. The Government's decision to create a level of Defence Forces’ capability equivalent to the Level of Ambition 2, LOA2, as set out in the capability framework, from the commission's recommendations, was a key milestone in that, much in the same way as the production of the first White Paper on Defence in 2000 led to the biggest programme of investment in and modernisation of the Defence Forces.

I also welcome the fact that the Government is committed to achieving an annual defence budget of approximately €1.5 billion, at January 2022 prices, by 2028 through year-on-year increases in the annual Estimates. I am very heartened to see also another step in this process yesterday with the announcement that it has awarded a €76 million contract for the provision of a modern software defined radio system for the Defence Forces, replacing a near 30-year-old system - it is hard to believe the age of the system.

Ensuring we have a strong and capable Defence Forces takes much more than just money. People who have served in the Army, for example Senator Clonan and others, would know more about this than I would. It requires organisational and support structures which are not just fit for purpose but also reflect best practice. These are essential to ensure that every man and woman in the Defence Forces feels both valued and represented and for this reason I welcome the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024. There is much in the Bill that is excellent and I am pleased to support it. It provides for an important recommendation by the independent review group on dignity and equality issues in the Defence Forces, namely, the establishment of the statutory external oversight body for the Defence Forces. That is very welcome. Like others, I have some reservations about how that is to be constituted and I will set these out shortly.

Before I turn to the ways in which we, in the Seanad, can use our important role as a revising Chamber, let me set out some of the important positives of the Bill. It does create a statutory framework. I will not read out everything contained in the comprehensive speech by the Minister but it is important that I outline certain things. The Bill creates a statutory framework for association with ICTU by the representatives bodies. This has been long spoken about and the Tánaiste is to be congratulated on delivering it.

The Bill also delivers several other long-promised amendments and reforms not least of which is the very important protection of the term "Óglaigh na hÉireann" and the re-engagement of enlisted persons, Permanent Defence Forces and Reservists. These are important reforms and I, again, congratulate the Tánaiste, in his absence, on his work.

That said, I did say earlier that there are some areas which are in need of revision before this Bill is ready to become an Act of the Oireachtas and I think we, in the Seanad, are well placed to do that work. Let me start that work by quoting the words of a predecessor of Deputy Martin's as both the Tánaiste and the Minister for Defence, the late Brian Lenihan senior. Presenting the original 1990 Defence Act to the Dáil on Tuesday, 13 March 1990, the then Minister said: "Spokespersons for the associations will be permitted to make statements to the news media on matters which fall within their mandate." This was a major step forward at the time. It was rightly seen as an overdue signal that the Minister and the Government had confidence in the then newly constituted representative groups to work responsibly and exercise restraint. It is important that we acknowledge that that is precisely what both PDFORRA and RACO have done for the past 34 years.

I am not aware of any major situation where the Minister, the Department or Chief of Staff have felt the need to regret the approach adopted by the then Minister, Brian Lenihan. That is why I worry that the Bill, as currently worded, gives the possibly mistaken impression that the State no longer has the same confidence in the representatives bodies that we had in 1990. I am sure that is not the view of the Minister but I know from discussions with male and female members of the Defence Forces, who have served this country with great distinction and loyalty, that they feel that some provisions are excessive and cast an overly wide net.

I think the associations' right to advocate for the inclusion of the phrase "or matter of Government policy" in two places in this Bill suggest that the Minister and Government believe that the Defence Forces' services means a less than full part in society. I am sure that is not the intention but the reality is there is a view at a time of seriously deflated morale within the Defence Forces that the Government thinks they deserve a reduced status as citizens.I regret its members feel that way. We have a duty to ensure that impression is corrected. Deleting the phrase "or matter of government policy" would send out an important signal as to the importance we attach to the service of the Defence Forces. I am doubtful that we even need to enshrine this matter in primary legislation. There is already an ongoing prohibition on public commentary on political matters. It is working well and should form the basis of a robust code of practice. That would serve both sides much better than a coarse line in primary legislation. HR experts have advised me that producing a comprehensive code of practice is a more appropriate method of dealing with complex restrictions than simplistic legislative prohibitions.

I listened carefully to the Tánaiste when he was discussing the external oversight body. These are the thoughts of Senator Wilson and many others on the external oversight body. We all want robust independent oversight and we want the new external oversight body to be an exemplar of good governance across the public service. In the late 1990s and early 2000s, the Defence Forces were the prototype for how public sector reform could work in the interests of all. However, mixing oversight and executive functions is not typically good practice. External oversight should be exactly that, it should be both external and solely focused on oversight. I am reasonably convinced by the arguments of the representative bodies and many Oireachtas Members who have experience of life in the Defence Forces, on the inappropriateness, notwithstanding the Tánaiste's rebuttal of that criticism, of having the Secretary General, who is a fine individual and does a good job, as an ex officiomember of the oversight body.

I listened carefully to the Tánaiste's points on this. Any person holding that important post would, by definition, be well qualified. However, there is a perception of a potential conflict of interest which would compromise the independence of the oversight. Similarly, regarding the composition of committees within the external oversight body, it would contribute to the confidence in the independent and impartial oversight, for the Bill to clarify that serving Department of Defence civil servants are ineligible for membership.

I could make other points, especially on making the Chief of Staff of the Defence Forces an Accounting Officer, much in the way that the Garda Commissioner is the Accounting Officer for An Garda Síochána, but I am approaching the end of my time.

On pre-legislative scrutiny, I will make a point related to how the legislation was presented to the Oireachtas. On 26 April, the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence produced its detailed and considerable pre-legislative scrutiny. It was a serious and well-crafted piece of work that had all-party backing. The Department published the draft Bill on the Houses of Oireachtas website one day earlier. Pre-legislative scrutiny is an important function of the parliamentary system of oversight and the process should be conducted in an atmosphere of co-operation and partnership. I hope we will not see a repeat of this misguided attitude to the Oireachtas in future, especially as the Tánaiste's Department plans to produce even more complex defence legislation in the months ahead.

I welcome the Bill. There are many positive things in it, but we as a Chamber have an opportunity to make this very good Bill even better. I am happy to work positively with the Minister of State, the Minister and colleagues across the Seanad to make improvements and ensure the Bill has the widest possible support, not only in this Chamber, but across the Defence Forces family.