Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Acting Chairperson. I appreciate that because I wish to respond as best I can to the excellent debate and the contributions that have been made. Members will forgive me if I jump from one issue to another but it will be in an effort to respond to what they said.

I will start with Senator Higgins simply because, respectfully, that seems to be the most logical response. What she said is exactly right in so many ways. We are constrained by the practicality of some of the different particular challenges of the day and of the jurisdiction. I agree with her. I am so proud that Ireland is a post-colonial society that has never invaded, profited from or benefited from the largesse of any other part of the world. It has never performed acts of cruelty to any other part of the world. We do not have ornate buildings around Ireland that have been funded by the profits of that sort of activity. I am so proud that is the case. That gives us a different standing in the world morally and diplomatically. It gives us a very different perspective, a humanitarian one, that we try to bring in to everything we do. As Senators Moynihan and Ward said, our post-colonial experience informs our particular perspective on the conflict in the Middle East. I might come back to that because it is an important link.

The question of neutrality was touched on by Senators Higgins and Craughwell. I will explain my thinking in that regard. It is very important that Ireland has been militarily non-aligned. Of course, we have not had to participate. As Senator Byrne said, we have the longest continuous democracy, and that is true. That is because we have protected and preserved the political institutions and elections in this State. However, it is also because we did not patriciate in the Second World War. That is a question of the day but also an historical and moral question we could ask ourselves about how we did not participate in stopping a very different genocide at that time. That is a question on which we might reflect. We did rely at times on other people to support our effort to be neutral. I am not sure that was the best moral decision either.

I appreciate what Senator Craughwell said about the different words we use, such as being militarily non-aligned. I completely agree with that. We are not politically neutral. I appreciate that the Senator is criticising me and others for using these phrases interchangeably, and that may be so. Let us put that aside and speak about the principles rather than the words. We are very much in favour of democratic norms and the rule of law and societies that either have or are aspiring to implement those norms.I refer in particular to countries such as Ukraine, Moldova, Kosovo and those across the western Balkans that are struggling with the transition to democracy both because that is difficult to do and because of the contextual difficulties, such as trying to implement major rule-of-law reforms in the face of very significant and entrenched organised crime. It is very difficult to do. I met a number of my counterparts from those countries at the General Affairs Council and they are really struggling with those challenges. I also met my colleagues from Estonia, Lithuania and Finland, all of which, particularly Estonia and Lithuania, have made the transition to democracy and are entirely committed to the democratic project and the rule of law. The principles at the centre of the project we share are about humanity, but they are also the principles of democracy and the rule of law. These are the principles - as Senator Higgins said, principles rather than interests - that we can wrap around and that Ireland wants to wrap around.

The fact, however, is that the principles they are trying to uphold in Lithuania and Estonia are being strategically attacked by a different force, namely Russia. As regards the particular jurisdictional and situational context they face, they are trying to consider their armament, the amount they are spending on defence, not because they wish to do so. It is being ramped up that quickly because they are looking at the principles and the transitions they have gone through, from the Soviet Union, to democracies, to the European Union, and now they see them very much under threat. They are under threat through the instrumentalised, weaponised pushing over of migrants by Russian and aligned actors. They face continuous threats, including hundreds of cyberattacks a day, according to what those colleagues report to me, and the continual efforts to disrupt their democracies time and time again through disinformation. It is a different situational context.

It is in that context that the defence and security conversation has come to the fore. It is one of the top three European priorities, not because I believe Europe is trying to articulate or defend a set of interests but because it has no choice at this moment. Ireland is a continuous democracy that has come from a postcolonial state to defend democratic institutions and the rule of law on a pan-European basis. We have seen the benefit of that to our State. What Senator Ward said about the real capturing of our sovereignty through the European Union, not in spite of the European Union, was poignant and important. Ireland's position in that regard has to be closer within that European perspective to understand that we need to use Europe to properly defend ourselves in terms of our own national security. If that means participating in structures where we can get quicker or cheaper access to the tools our Defence Forces need for us to defend ourselves, both physically and from cyberattack, I believe that is an appropriate thing to do. We did the same regarding the protection of our people from Covid in the sharing of access to vaccines and the advantage we get through shared co-operation. We are not talking about buying things to go and attack people; we are talking about participating to be able to defend ourselves. Senator Craughwell is correct that our Defence Forces are not properly equipped and that they need more support. Senator Malcolm Byrne said that, as did Senator Ward. We need the capital investment. The supply chains are very difficult at the moment, and the reason they are is that so much is being used in Ukraine. The equipment simply is not there precisely because it is being used by a transitional country that is trying to be a democratic state committed to the rule of law. It is being attacked by an actor that simply wants to destroy, not just that country's effort but also Europe's effort to protect and extend democracy, to extend the European family closer to Russia and the principles all of that includes. I agree with Senator Higgins on so many of these issues but I do not think what we are saying is contradictory. The situational jurisdictional context is extremely important.

On what Senator Moynihan said about Gaza, she is correct, of course, about our moral leadership. What I am saying about our postcolonial experience informs some of that, but it is Ireland's position that the European Union has come to as regards the ceasefire, which she acknowledged. It is Ireland alone that is advocating an urgent review. The former Taoiseach, Deputy Varadkar, wrote to President von der Leyen about a joint review with Prime Minister Sánchez on 14 February last year. I was with the new Taoiseach at the fringes of the European Council meeting last month when he made that point again, and there has not been a response. In the same way, Ireland has stood up and wants to recognise the state of Palestine. We are not delaying that for any casual reason. It is to try to have the best way of doing that, as has been said, and it is Ireland that is doing that from its experience. It will always be moderates. It will never be Hamas, who can never be excused for what they have done, nor can the Netanyahu government ever be excused for what it has done. It will be the moderate democrats in Israel and the moderates in Palestine who will bring about this peace process and this political path, which is what we support. I refer to international institutions, the rule of law, democracy and a humanitarian underpinning of all the different things we are doing. It is those moderates who will bring us forward, I hope, in the way Senator Moynihan has described Germany and France and their coalescence around coal and steel. At that time, wars were determined entirely by who had the most steel. That was it. Of course, that has changed since, but it was that alignment of coal and steel.

I said incorrectly in the Dáil that yesterday was 80 years since Victory in Europe Day. It was, of course, 79 years ago. Next year it will be 80 years. Today, however, is Europe Day. It is such an important day to recognise Ireland's place in Europe and in the world. What Senator Ward said about the enhancement of our sovereignty through Europe was so important. It is not a context I had thought about in terms of the currency. He is entirely right about the precedent. It is extremely important.

As regards Senator Malcolm Byrne's idea about 18-year-olds travelling, it might seem like a long way away, but so did the idea of Europe. It such a wonderful expression of enabling our young people to understand and see the shared values, the different cultural experiences and the very different places we have all come from, yet we come together to create a shared, collective and consensual Europe. It is a fantastic idea.

I would like to advise Senator Craughwell that I was actually in the Department of Defence. I went in to meet senior management on my second day. I just took a photograph outside. I do not go to places to have photographs taken.