Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I hope so. I will have to leave the Chamber. The Minister of State, Deputy Collins, will take the next grouping.

I remind the House of what the Bill states. Section 16(2) states:

...the Board shall be appointed by the Minister from among persons who, in the opinion of the Minister, have sufficient experience and expertise relating to matters connected with the functions of the Agency to enable them to make a substantial contribution to the effective and efficient performance of those functions.

The Public Appointments Service, PAS, booklet states:

Successful applicants for these positions must demonstrate in their application evidence of significant experience at an appropriately senior level in two or more of the following areas: • Undertaking research at the highest international standards, particularly those that can articulate a balanced perspective across multiple disciplines and across the full spectrum of research spanning fundamental research to applied research activity;

• Experience of the relationship between all three missions of higher education institutions (teaching & learning, research & innovation and engagement) and competitive research funding.

• Promoting the perspectives of researchers at all career stages, and particularly early career researchers

The reason the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment is reflective is quite simple. The Minister, through his Department, is a significant funder of what it is we want to do. If I or the then Minister and current Taoiseach, Deputy Simon Harris, came before the House with a Bill that, to refer to Senator Byrne's comments, was singular rather than cross-departmental and which did not encompass a whole-of-government approach, I am sure I would have a totally different reaction.

I will be very honest. Over almost 102 years, the State has had a history of establishing boards with independent chairpersons and memberships to carry out disciplines on behalf of the Government, to lay reports before the Houses of the Oireachtas and come before the Houses of the Oireachtas to have their accounts scrutinised by the Comptroller and Auditor General and be scrutinised by the Committee of Public Accounts. That system has served us well.

Going back to the point made by Senator Byrne, if we are too prescriptive in the Bill regarding the type of people that must comprise the board and rule that everybody else cannot be considered, we will have a very small pool. I would then come before the House having failed to get people through the PAS system. There is a gender requirement, and I hope to see a lot of diversity. The PAS has been at pains to try to achieve that. The more prescriptive we make the Bill, the more difficult the process will be and the more people who will be excluded. The very people who have told me that we need to include people will be giving out about the fact that some are excluded.

There is a misnomer here. The third level sector will be hugely important, but this is not an agency for the third level sector. Rather, it is an agency for research in terms of collaboration for the entirety of Ireland. I am not using the term "Ireland Inc.". That means that the Bill cannot be exclusionary. I believe that the Bill cannot be too definitive with regard to the type of people we might or might not like or have a quota for particular types of disciplines.Before we knew where we were, the legislation would be unworkable. Ironically, everyone is anxious to see Taighde Éireann established as soon as possible, but the likelihood of this agency being set up anytime soon would be impacted if I were to take on board everything said up to now in respect of the need for me to prescribe this, that and the other as requirements for members of the board. The PAS would come back and tell me it went out, advertised and got no responses that matched the criteria set out.

People should not be prevented from aspiring to serve on State boards because they happen to be citizens. I actually think this is a good thing. There should not be a requirement to have a minimum academic qualification to serve on a board. I abhor this kind of thing in respect of there being certain levels below which people cannot be considered for roles. I thought Ireland in 2024 had moved on from that type of thinking. I hope it does.

This Bill, by the nature of the fact it is not as prescriptive as some would like it, allows for different voices - those voices some Senators referred to - to be heard, including those from the arts, the social sciences, chemistry, biology and mathematics, as well as sociologists and psychologists, who would otherwise be excluded if I were to undertake the requested prescription. All this new agency would be, in some people's minds, would be Science Foundation Ireland rebranded or, in other people's eyes, non-Science Foundation Ireland rebranded. The whole reason and premise of this legislation and the very genesis of the writing of this Bill in the first place was to get away from being exclusionary and move to being inclusionary. I hope, therefore, that Members will consider this legislation based on the bona fides with which it is presented.

The Bill is being presented to try to ensure we do not end up in a situation where we would go down the road of telling PAS it must seek X, Y and Z. Its officials would turn around and ask us what they are there for at all. Before we knew where we were, it would then be the Minister almost hand-picking people to fill vacancies because we could not get anyone to apply. The very people who would then be saying it was too prescriptive would be saying the Government was running Taighde Éireann and setting the agenda. The most important thing in all this is the fact that the legislation is extremely wide I reiterate the relevant text in this regard again. Section 16(2), relating to membership of the board, refers to the requirement for members to "have sufficient experience and expertise relating to matters connected with the functions of the Agency". If this does not give as wide a scope as possible for as many people as possible to apply to get into these positions, I do not know what to say.

If I were to start tinkering around with this section and say we must define the type of people sought, the type of areas they should come from or the level of expertise they should have, before we knew where we were, we would have a very shrunken pool of candidates and a limited resource to pick from. Given the diverse nature of the country in 2024 and all the stuff that has gone on, this approach would be very exclusionary. I hope the Seanad will not be of a mind to go down this road. If the Acting Chair does not mind, the Minister of State, Deputy Collins, is going to take over now.