Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent) | Oireachtas source

It will be easier then. Amendment No. 69 is another in this set that ensures consistency with amendment No. 68 by ensuring that if there is a casual vacancy for chairperson, it would not be a direct appointment by the Minister but the same measures I have outlined would apply. It is a technical amendment.

I will speak to a couple of points. We are blending bodies that have different records, have had different cultures and have done different work. While Science Foundation Ireland sat within the Department of enterprise, that is one of the reasons we need to ensure we do not see this as simply an extension of the Department of enterprise. While I reserve the right on Report Stage, I have not sought to remove the representative of the Department of enterprise from this. I think it says a representative or voice. Senator Malcolm Byrne has said that once they are in the room they are simply bringing their expertise. There is an acknowledgement of expertise. There is similarly an expertise that comes from being chosen and having worked with so many of your colleagues in the area of research. They have collectively chosen you as somebody who can bring expertise from the real world of research. You bring expertise, insight and knowledge from all of them into the room when the research and innovation agenda is being set. There is an extraordinary expertise that comes from having worked and having been in conversation with the great body of researchers in Ireland, as well as being a representative of those.

We also need to be honest that there is danger of slippage in this Bill. I am not excluding what colleagues are mentioning but not everything will have a commercial application. Some things will have a social, environmental, ecological or human rights application. That is not necessarily going to be a commercial application. Ireland is not Ireland Inc. It is not Ireland incorporated. The Irish State is a republic. It has a different piece there. While the incorporated or business world that happens within Ireland is important, it is not Ireland. In this context we need to be clear that it is only part of it. There is a danger, and I can see the slippage now when we talk about commercial applications and Ireland Inc. I really see the danger of losing that work on the humanities, sociology, culture, human rights, society and that bigger picture. Some of the challenges we need to address, and which will not make money for anyone, may help save lives. Today, for example, one of the largest groups of researchers to ever collectively come in attended the climate committee. I heard two things there. One was that there is an excessive reliance on industry funding in respect of the direction and application of climate action and a lack of adequate resourcing for public research for the public good. Additional funding that may come from industry is fine.There are certain things, especially in respect of climate, where the solution may end up being something that does not make anybody any money, but instead involves a shift in society, social practice or how we manage our public resources in terms of our environment and land, for example. That is why we need to have measures that deliver the balance on the board in terms of researchers and the arts and humanities on the board. That is required so that we do not fall into a very narrow version of what research and innovation will do.

This is about more than the higher education institutions. I would have to check the figures, but a huge amount of what we spend on research in Ireland comes in the form of research and development tax breaks. In terms of the knowledge box and others, we do not actually know what such things do. There may well be many other forms of research taking place, but one of the problems is that much of that research does not have a lot of transparency and we do not know where the public benefit is coming from. If we are looking for those voices to be represented, we also need to come with a better expectation of transparency in terms of that part of the research. I will yield to the Minister of State and come back in afterwards.