Vincent P Martin (Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I thank all the Senators for supporting this. It has been an excellent debate. I thank them for their encouraging, kind, dedicated commitment to this. People who signed it or wanted to sign it come from every grouping in the Seanad. I hope the Minister takes that on board. We can disagree in this House but there is something about this Bill and what it is trying to protect which goes beyond party politics. That is why I have chosen a collaborative, cross-party approach, because it is beyond party politics.

I thank the Minister for her presence and for coming back to join the debate. She is respected and has a track record in this field. There is a golden opportunity for the Minister, because she is a reforming legislative Minister, to go for it with this one. I welcome her encouraging remarks tonight, but we have to accept that the current system is broken. Some victims are in grave danger. The legislation is currently one size fits all. There are summary offences. It is a conveyor belt and swinging door. People will almost invariably get bail. We said there were 10,000 orders and 5,000 breaches of those orders. To not legislate for the serious end of that spectrum is in dereliction of our duty as legislators.

I appreciate the Minister flagging concerns. I would not expect anything less. That is what we are here to do in a legislative Chamber. I commend the Minister on looking around the corner and anticipating possible pitfalls. All I would say is that the current system is broken.

A distinguished former Taoiseach who was famous for having very long Cabinet meetings, after thrashing out whether it worked in practice, asked the question of whether it worked in theory. Does this work in theory? We can tie ourselves up in knots and paralyse progress on this by looking at the theoretical possibilities. I suggest the Minister trust judges. In our system, we have a right to appeal to a second judge. We have a very high standard of membership of the Judiciary. I would suggest that we trust the Director of Public Prosecutions to do the right thing, otherwise we will be in a state of debilitating paralysis.

A legitimate concern was pointed out tonight that there would be a serious charge anyway which is indictable and would go to a Circuit Court jury trial. That is correct, but if the most serious charge is assault, by the time a book of evidence is prepared, that is much later. This happens very fast and it needs a response. One size does not fit all. Those who are worried about the unintended consequences, such as the victims maybe not going to seek protection in the first place, should ask victims and survivors whether they think this is a good idea or if it is one size fits all for the 10,000 orders made last year in this country.Anecdotally, I have been told that judges are frustrated there is certain evidence that is inadmissible because it is always a summary offence. Every single breach is currently treated as a summary matter. Summary has a major role to play going forward, as has the District Court, which is the court of first instance, but we must have the option in these serious matters.

I once again thank the Minister. We are talking about increasing the sentence for the offence of coercive control. It is currently a sentence of up to five years. This is one aspect of tonight's Bill. The other aspect is to put this into the bail schedule. I would like to sit down with the Minister in this regard. I will not press on until we have her on board fully to ensure we take the next steps together and we bring everyone together. I am going to stick at this topic. I thank the Minister for her preliminary response, which is encouraging. I look forward to working with her and her senior expert officials to ensure we get this over the line.

For instance, the ex partepoint is a good one. If we do not want to trust the judges and the DPP, then maybe this is a wrinkle in the legislation, but it will be sorted out when it takes its journey through the legislative process. This is no reason not to start the journey and to progress it. I thank all the Senators for their incredible support. This cross-party support is much appreciated and it could be a catalyst to get this done. It is Seanad Éireann coming together to protect some of the most vulnerable people. They go home after a bail application, and are then back in the privacy of that vulnerable situation where they might have failed in their opposition to that bail application. This is a terrifying prospect for anyone. People in this situation were terrified initially, and then they are going home to be terrified more. We have to do better, we will do better and I trust the Minister will. I thank her for her remarks.