Lisa Chambers (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I understand the Minister said that in 2005 the establishment of a separate national security agency was considered. In the past decade in particular, there have been many changes. Heretofore as a country we relied heavily our geography to protect us. We did not think national security was an issue for Ireland but that it was something that happened elsewhere. We did not think there were threats that could affect us and that we would be left alone because we were a small little island out in the Atlantic Ocean and sure everyone loves the Irish. We have learned the hard way that national security threats are real and genuine.

The HSE cyberattack really brought home to every household how vulnerable we can be when we are targeted. We also know we have the transatlantic cables coming to the west coast. These are very important cables that transmit a large volume of data. They are important not only to Ireland but to the European Union, the US and the UK. I have raised this matter previously, as have others, not only in the context of the Bill but in prior debates in the House. I am concerned that issues of national security and the security services being under the remit of An Garda Síochána poses a number of challenges. There is a capacity issue in An Garda Síochána to deal with the large scale of the work involved in security services in the State. There is also the obvious issue we are now dealing with regard to recruiting a person into the lead intelligence role because of the conflicts that exist. This has highlighted the issue but it was also highlighted previously.While I appreciate the current Government policy is unchanged in that security services will remain under the remit of An Garda Síochána, there is an opportunity here given the sweeping reforms provided for in this legislation, which has taken the best part of five years to develop. We have not made any changes to policy on national security and intelligence services, despite the huge challenges we face.

I know the Minister has been liaising with her counterparts in the UAE as regards the Kinahans. We know organised crime is a big problem and we have to engage with other security services and police forces across the globe. Our policy has not changed or moved in that period of changing circumstances. The Bill presented an opportunity to do something in that space. While the policy is being maintained by keeping security issues under the remit of An Garda Síochána, that is presenting a challenge to An Garda Síochána because we cannot get somebody to fill that role. It poses a challenge for the Garda in general and the State and our policy in this area needs to be given proper, in-depth consideration.

The world and the geopolitical situation have changed. There is a war on the border of the European Union on which we have taken a particular position and that has left us open. We know there are concerns around the Russian Embassy in Dublin and Russia and China generally. There is a huge body of work that other jurisdictions and countries are taking very seriously. I wonder if this State is taking national security and intelligence seriously enough. Given the constraints within An Garda Síochána, does it have the full capacity to deal with all of the new national security and intelligence challenges?

Given that we are providing for so much reform, now is the time to look seriously at having a separate intelligence agency. The challenges presented by having security issues in An Garda Síochána are obvious and real. That is not a criticism of previous policies but an acknowledgement that the world has changed, as have the security threats to our country, and things are moving at a very fast pace. This is an opportune time for the Government and the Department of Justice to look at this or even start the ball rolling by having a discussion and dialogue on where we want to go with that and what would be the best way to deal with intelligence and security services in future. Even a commitment that we are interested in looking at this issue, having a conversation about it and starting to do some scoping work on it would be a good step forward in the term of this Government, while appreciating that the work on this Bill has been done over a long period.