Barry Ward (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

Senator Ruane referred to what I said on Committee Stage about these amendments. I do not accept that the Garda should be put in the same category as the police in the United States, particularly, or even in the UK. I think they are better than that but in saying that, I can see that there are bad apples in the barrel. There always are. I recognise the point Senator Ruane is making regarding the need to have impartiality or independence to this process. However, I also have a difficulty with the notion that it is not up to the actual garda or protocol but an individual with whom he or she is dealing, mar dhea - because that is exactly what it would be - to make the decision as to whether the camera is turned on or not. That is my difficulty with it. She made reference to the Minister's response on that last occasion about relying on the codes of practice, which is what it is all about. Those codes of practice need to be rock solid. It needs to be absolutely clear when there is an obligation on the garda and it needs to make provision for scenarios in which the garda cannot evade turning on the camera to serve his or her purposes. The purposes to which I think Senator Ruane referred is when somebody gets roughed up by a garda. It happens, unfortunately. Part of the rationale behind having body cameras is to stop that kind of thing. I said on a number of occasions that the value of having garda body cameras is that it protects gardaí concerning false allegations and it helps them to gather evidence but it also protects citizens regarding overzealous gardaí. It is important that those protocols are such that they guarantee the safety of anybody with whom a garda is dealing. I do not want to say things about gardaí in general when they really only apply to a small few but we know they are there. One benefit of garda body cameras is that they avoid the suggestion, even, and they also, I hope, will temper the base instincts of somebody inclined to behave in a way outside the law, let us be honest. I do not agree with the amendment and I cannot support it. Will the Minister address those protocols?

One thing Senator Ruane said in her contribution was that this should not be left down to the Government of the day. How will the protocols operate? I presume they will be approved by the Minister. Will there be any function for them to be approved by the Oireachtas, either through the Committee on Justice or being laid before the Houses? They will be public documents, I presume. Will there be an engagement with bodies like the Irish Council for Civil Liberties, ICCL, or other organisations that operate in the sphere of protecting individual rights, in particular? Will there be engagement with them before the protocols are put together? What does the Minister foresee as being the mechanism for those protocols? I cannot support the amendment because this must be done through procedures and protocols, rather than through legislation because legislation is too rigid to do it and does not allow for the flexibility that will be required.