Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank Senators for the broad welcome and support for the legislation. Issues and concerns were raised, all of which I hope to address. I apologise if I miss anything.

The first point to consider is what we are trying to achieve with this legislation. The aim is to give gardaí the right tools, technology and equipment to be able to do their job as efficiently and effectively as possible and to respond to the fact criminals have become more organised and technologically advanced. It is only appropriate that we ensure gardaí have the resources to enable them to respond, while balancing that with the need to protect the human rights of all individuals and ensure we do not cross a line. As I have said time and again, I genuinely believe gardaí should not have their hands tied behind their back when trying to deal with serious crime. In this regard, a person's right to privacy should never overstep another person's right to be and feel safe. It is about striking that balance and ensuring we have the right oversight, structures and codes of conduct and practice in place.

On the technology to be used, I will start with the body-worn cameras. There are a number of elements to the Bill. We will put a pilot scheme in place. The tender for that has not gone out as yet. People who were at the National Ploughing Championships last week, as I was, might have engaged with the gardaí there, who are looking at a number of devices from the US, Northern Ireland and the UK. They include different types of cameras placed in various locations and different types of technology. As the pilot is rolled out next year, the Garda will be looking at the various technologies, where they should be placed, how they work and the types of footage that can be obtained. All of that information will then feed into the final decision. No decision has yet been taken on the type of technology and equipment that will be used. That is what the pilot is for and it is really important we have the pilot and that we make sure we get this right.

I do not have a code of conduct to hand because it still has to be worked through. It would not be appropriate to include it in legislation. It will be worked though by the Garda Commissioner engaging with all the agencies, including the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission and the ICCL. When the Bill is passed, there will be an opportunity for Members of this House to have their say and engage with that process. It will be done in line with best practice, looking at what works in other jurisdictions. Body-worn cameras and facial recognition technology, which we have discussed, are in use in a majority of countries across Europe and further afield. There is a huge amount of best practice to examine. The fact we are coming late to it means we can learn from mistakes made elsewhere, which we certainly intend to do.

While there is a perception that gardaí will have all the power when these devices are available to them, my own perception or view is that, at the moment, they have none of the power. We saw people outside this building last week with their faces covered and using cameras to record gardaí trying to do their job. There is intimidation in that. I appreciate that is not always the case but we must make sure there is a level playing field. At the moment, there is not a level playing field for gardaí and there is only one side being told, often on social media. It absolutely is appropriate that we ensure there is a level playing field.

On the question of how and when the devices can be turned on and off, that will be set out in the code of conduct. Members of An Garda Síochána will have to explain why they did not turn on a device in a certain instance if that is what they should do based on the code of conduct.Also, if a camera is turned off in the middle of an incident and somebody makes a complaint or reports that, they themselves will then have to explain why, and there will be that level of oversight in place to make sure it is used appropriately and at times that it is needed. We have talked about the different types of incidents. It could be a situation where a garda finds him or herself among a group of people with the potential for an assault or an incident to happen in front of them. In such an instance there is an ability to capture that. Another situation which the Commissioner has raised many times is if you were a garda arriving on the scene of a domestic violence incident. It is often those first few moments where people say and do things that are crucial and they are able to capture that, which can feed into a case or investigation if a story suddenly changes or if the information is not available because it has not been captured. There are lots of other incidents. I have mentioned events outside of this House and we have seen other protests outside direct provision centres and in our libraries. In many other places it would be helpful to have this type of information to balance the current narrative.

On GDPR, I want to assure Senator Keogan that this legislation has been drafted in accordance and consultation with the DPC. That is probably why it has taken so long. We have made sure that every single element of it is compliant with GDPR and we have made sure the safeguards were in place. I assure the Senator that every level of engagement has been taken with the DPC to make sure we are not in any way impinging on data protection rights. Everything will be put in place with the EU regulation. There was a discussion on facial recognition. I made it clear in June that we have decided that facial recognition will not be part of this Bill. We will be bringing forward a separate Bill which I hope to have published before the year end, where we are talking about retrospective facial recognition, not live facial recognition. The move at European level is to ban live facial recognition. However, it is not moving in the direction of banning retrospective facial recognition. The majority of countries in Europe have retrospective facial recognition and we are slightly late to the party but that gives us an opportunity to make sure that what we put in place is best practice, and that we remove any of the challenges that other countries have seen. That trilogue is ongoing at a European level and that has to come to a conclusion.

On ANPR, this is to try to expand on what is already in place to make sure that it is specifically for preventing, detecting, investigating or prosecuting criminal offences. I refer to the oversight that is in place, for example where you are specifically tracking an individual. It does not have judicial oversight for the first three months but after that you will have to get judicial approval and every year there will be a report from a judge to the Department of the Taoiseach to make sure this is being put in place effectively and correctly, and that there are no issues arising. More generally, in terms of drones, when this is enacted, similar to the codes of conduct, there will be significant engagement to make sure that whatever practice is used does not interfere with people's personal rights or privacy and that it is in line with best practice elsewhere. I appreciate that I am saying this is something to be decided later but this will all be transparent and visible and will have that level of oversight, particularly for ourselves.

On the CCTV schemes, this is an ongoing issue everywhere. While we have CCTV schemes still being rolled out across the country where it is coming directly from the Garda, there has been a lacuna or hiatus for community CCTV schemes coming forward, and that is because of the issues that were raised following the introduction of legislation at European level back in 2015. The situation is that you will either have the local authority or An Garda Síochána being the data controller. Irrespective of whether it is the local authority or not, the Garda will be able to access that footage, whether it is inside or outside of local authority hours, and that is the most important issue. The community CCTV will come in where members of the local authority, through their role, identify a need in a particular area. I do not deny that issues have arisen over the summer, in Dublin or other places, where the use of body-worn cameras and CCTV would be hugely helpful in dealing with antisocial behaviour and in giving gardaí evidence to respond to these types of issues where perhaps they do not have it. On access at all times, it is the case that whether the local authority is open or not the Garda will be able to access it.

On relationships, Senator Flynn asked about marginalised groups that feel they are overpoliced. They would be protected and this comes down to the codes of conduct and the practice that is put in place. We have separate Bills going through the Houses, including the Policing, Security and Community Safety Bill 2023, in which we are reforming the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission and making sure we have a much quicker, more efficient and clearer process as to Garda disciplinary matters as well as criminal conduct. That means that certain incidents can be dealt with quickly. More generally, I mention the approach that is being taken by gardaí in making sure they are not just in the community but part of the community and working with the community. The recent recruitment campaigns have been more focused on trying to bring in new communities that would not normally become members of An Garda Síochána because if you see yourself in a member of An Garda Síochána that connection and ability to engage will be much stronger. We need to make sure gardaí are reflective of all the communities they represent and there has been a massive push for that in the recent recruitment campaigns. I mention also the Garda's work in engaging with schools and young people as part of the youth diversion programmes and, more generally, I mention its approach on diversity and inclusion. There has been a huge focus and effort to make sure all members of our community feel respected and supported by the Garda, and that works both ways at all times.

On the Courts Service, we have a massive modernisation programme under way, which will support what we are talking about here. If we move to more digitalisation of the Garda then that needs to feed into how the courts operate, and there has been a year-on-year increase in funding to roll out that type of modernisation. On the Senator's second question, I am looking at legislation to see how we can free up gardaí from having to attend the court where it is not necessary or where it should not be necessary. That in itself would free up significant numbers of gardaí who are attending court on a daily basis.

On CCTV and funding, there is and has been a fund in the Department of Justice for communities to access that. It is still there but because of the issues we have had over time it has not been accessed. However, it is my intention that this fund would be available and that the legislation is enacted. Hopefully before the end of the year that will be available to communities to access again. There is still work to do and I will continue to engage with colleagues as this goes through the House. Again I thank Senators for their support. More generally, I will take on board all of the points, asks or questions that Members have raised.