Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

The reason I say this is I did what the Senator suggested and read the report myself. I do not have to depend on advice from officials on how to assess a report like this. I have been through quite a number of inquiries, from my earliest days in the Department of Education when I set up the first ever inquiry into religious institutions and industrial schools. There is considerable trauma involved in people coming forward. People do not come forward lightly.

We could look at this numerically, consider how many actually came forward and could say that as a representative sample of the entirety of those employed, it seems small. However, if we also looks at Raiseaconcern, which the former Minister, Deputy Coveney, established at the same time as establishing the independent review group and at the Defence Forces own survey around bullying complaints and sexual assault, we see that they all align. If we were to just look exclusively at the report, we might come to certain conclusions. In fairness, Senator Craughwell is correct that the report is not a fact-finding report. Equally, its authors say that the vast majority of serving members are upright, honourable people who want to serve their country and it is in the interests of those people that we have to get this right. A statutory inquiry creates the framework or the basis for going further than the conclusions of the IRG and for interrogating these issues comprehensively, without fear or favour.

I met representatives of Raiseaconcern myself, having read the report and they are very clear that there is a systemic issue here, that it is an issue right now and is not just historic. I met all members of the independent review group. Some members of the secretariat who had no experience of any of this said they had never come across anything like this in their lives, in terms of the experiences that were related to them and that came before them.

There is a temptation to say that this is about resources, and some of the representative groups might say, "If only we had resources". This is not about resources; this is about culture. On another day, we can debate resources. Pay and conditions have improved, particularly for those who have just done their leaving certificate. The starting pay is above most entry levels now. This is about culture and how people feel and work within the Defence Forces. We cannot keep saying that if we just do something with the barracks or with whatever, this will all disappear because it will not. If I am honest, although I might be wrong here, my own sense is that the culture as revealed in this report is very much part and parcel of the recruitment and retention issue. The retention issue in particular is related to this.

There are issues with training, as mentioned by several Senators. I raised this with my "military advisors" as the Act describes them, that is, with senior members of management and also with serving members. We have all heard that training is about how fast one can run and how much one can carry as one runs. It is almost like a survival course.I am conscious of the comments made by Senator Kyne, and there is a balance to be struck. I have read Karina Molloy's book. The whole of training is about survival. You must not complain; you must make it. I come from a different educational culture, which is one of affirmation. If a person is almost 70% of the way there, how do we get that person to 90%? If the person is at 50%, how do we get the person to 60% or 70%? I recently spoke to some recruits. I need to be careful because I have toured all the barracks. Once they get through training, they are happy with it. That is part of that kind of culture. If somebody does not come through it, maybe that says he or she is really not fit. I will be straight up, because I said it to the military chiefs and I will say it to those in this House. If we have someone who is a genius in cybersecurity, but who is unfit, we should find a way to make that person a member of the Defence Forces. He or she may be far more damned useful in that role, given the threats we currently face, than basing his or her suitability on the ability to run 150 laps of Croke Park. I am being a bit facetious, but sometimes it is about what threats and challenges we face.