Barry Ward (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Tánaiste agus gabhaim buíochas leis as ucht teacht anseo chun díospóireacht a dhéanamh linn ar an ábhar tábhachtach seo.

I welcome a lot of what the Tánaiste said. The recognition in his speech has been tremendously important. I also share his pride in the Defence Forces and what they do for us as a country and individually. When they come to our aid, we know we can depend on them. The reputational benefits we have from them and the work they do throughout the world consistently and honourably is something that makes us all very proud. It is also work that is tremendously important. It establishes our reputation with our European neighbours and countries throughout the world that need their help in peacekeeping and other roles.Irish people generally are enormously proud of the role the Irish Defence Forces have played, particularly in conjunction with the United Nations in terms of bringing the values we hope underpin this State to countries where there has been conflict and other enormous difficulties. I start this discussion from the point that we are consistently proud of their activities. Any time I have engaged with members of the Defence Forces in Ireland or abroad, I am reassured that they are people of enormous quality, skill, integrity and dedication, which is not to say that like any other organisation, there are not bad apples in the barrel. Of course there are. That is true as much of these Houses as it is of the Defence Forces or any company, body, profession or whatever it might be. No organisation is immune from the fact that people within it sometimes do not respect the norms. The value of the Defence Forces cannot be doubted, however, and is not undone by the report we are discussing in this debate.

What the report does, however, is highlight to us serious deficiencies within the Defence Forces. It highlights to the Tánaiste and to us as Members of the Oireachtas the actions that need to be taken to deal with issues that have been brought to the fore by the people he described in his speech, who have made very brave decisions to come out and tell a story that has been extraordinarily difficult to tell. It is not without risk either because, of course, they expose their colleagues and senior officers. To do so is an extremely difficult and brave thing to do. We should at no point gainsay the kind of courage that has been involved.

I am disappointed in the context of this debate by the speech we have just heard, which starts from the point of doubting every finding of the report and the matters within, which may not have been established beyond a reasonable doubt because this was not at the end of the day a criminal trial. This was a report that was done which gathered evidence. Senator Craughwell asked where the evidence was. The evidence is in the testimony and bravery of the people who brought these problems and illegal acts and crimes to light. That is where the evidence is.

It is absolutely possible to distinguish between the Defence Forces on the whole and its good members - I refer to the record of the Defence Forces and its individual members in bringing honour and an important sense of justice to this country - and certain other individuals. I say this with reference to no individual and without reference to any name or anything like that, but I have no doubt whatsoever in listening to what has been said by the Women of Honour and other groups that there are individuals with the Defence Forces who have carried out acts that are absolutely unconscionable and reprehensible and who need to be dealt with.

I do not approach this report from the starting point that this is somehow something that should hurt members of the Defence Forces. Unfortunately, this is something of a theme in the contributions Senator Craughwell has made in this Chamber with regard to the Defence Forces. Extraordinarily, when I speak to members of the Defence Forces, they acknowledge that there are problems with certain members. They acknowledge that there are issues that need to be addressed and that we inherited in many respects a culture from a former colonial power, which has continued to this day within the Defence Forces. More importantly, as I understand it, the management of the Defence Forces has acknowledged that there are issues that need to be addressed.

The starting point for dealing with these issues is not to deny them. It is not to say we are hurt to hear the suggestion that the Defence Forces are not perfect or that there are problems despite the fact that people acknowledge that on a day-to-day basis. The starting point must be - God knows in this Chamber we talk about issues like this, particularly in the context of violence against women - to listen to what they have to say and take on board that they are saying there is a problem. Instead of saying that there is no problem here because they do not have irrefutable evidence and that we do not accept what they say, the starting point must be to ask them to tell us what the problem is and how we can fix it, and then start the procedure. I refer to the very process the Tánaiste has been talking about to start to solve the problems. The reputational, attitudinal and cultural problems within the Defence Forces have been established, maybe not beyond a reasonable doubt or to a criminal standard, but to a sufficient standard in my view that we must recognise as a House and as politicians and members of society that we must take action on those problems. I will not stand here and say we should step back and disbelieve those people or somehow disregard the evidence, which is testimony. Testimony is evidence and that is often what is brought to bear as evidence in criminal trials. It can ultimately be found by a jury to a criminal standard. I am not going to disregard that evidence, however.

I accept what the members of the Women of Honour group have said. I accept what those who have been the victims of heinous crimes with the Defence Forces have said. I do not think that means every member of the Defence Forces should hang his or her head in shame; I think quite the opposite. Those who acknowledge it and recognise that we must take action to deal with those problems are the strongest members of the Defence Forces. If we do not deal with those problems, all the work we are putting together and all the things we are talking about in this Chamber about improving the lot of its members and investing in the Defence Forces, which is work that has been done by the Tánaiste and his predecessor, the Minister, Deputy Coveney, in terms of accepting the recommendations of the Report of the Commission on the Defence Forces, will be for nothing. The purchase of coastal patrol vessels and the changes in pay and conditions will all be for naught if we do not address the cultural issues within the Defence Forces. That has to be a starting point because otherwise we are throwing good money after bad. I absolutely agree with what the Department of Defence is doing. In the light of a global insecurity that is closer to home than it has been for a very long time, I am delighted to see this country taking seriously its role in terms of equipping our Defence Forces to do the job we expect them to do, which is to defend us if the need arises, to know what is going on, to have a proper radar system that sees what is coming over our western seaboard, to enable us to be involved in peacekeeping operations and to enable us to rescue our citizens from Sudan when a situation like that arises, which we cannot do at the moment.

I am absolutely behind the notion that we should be putting in place measures to allow our Defence Forces to do the job we expect them to do and hope they can do. It is all for nothing, however, if we do not deal with a culture that has been identified. We cannot somehow deny there is a problem and bury our heads in the sand and say we are hurt by this suggestion instead of saying we want to hear more about how we can solve this and ask what we need to make sure the Defence Forces is an equal place for people, regardless of whether they are men or women, or whatever part of the country or whatever country they are from. I was in the Netherlands on St. Patrick's Day and the LÉ William Butler Yeatswas there. The crew of that would make one proud to be Irish. As I understand it, at least six of them are not Irish. The Defence Forces is moving into a modern phase. If it is to properly become modern, it must change with regard to the very issues that have been identified in this report.

I absolutely welcome what the Tánaiste said and the strength of the language he used in dealing with it. Let us not be equivocal about this. Let us be bloody clear that we are not going to tolerate this kind of behaviour and that we are going to move forward in a way that addresses and fixes it and makes the Defence Forces a place people would want their son or daughter or brother or sister to go and serve and benefit us all.