Vincent P Martin (Green Party) | Oireachtas source

The Minister of State is, as always, very welcome to the Chamber. He stated that the Bill is a further strengthening of the existing laws. He also stated that transparency is key and, with frank candour, accepted that lobbying is a part of the greater workings of the democratic system. Lobbying can sometimes be misunderstood and misrepresented as something untoward but, of course, once it is done properly and in a transparent way, it is part of the framework of organised society and decision-making. However, I emphasise, as did the Minister of State, that it has to be done properly, transparently and with accountability. This is the third review, and a further extension is envisaged in this legislation to capture more. There is nothing to fear in strengthening the protections. It is only something good and positive that people will understand more and have greater faith and confidence in and that will safeguard against unacceptable behaviour.

It is early stages yet but I believe it is envisaged that the next review will take place after five years rather than three. Perhaps we can tease out on Committee Stage why that was done. Lobbying is a bit like the Constitution in that it is a living thing. You have to be able to adapt with flexibility and agility. I remain unconvinced about the five years but I am sure the draftspeople had reasons for that. We can flesh it out at a later date.

The other big section in the Bill relates to administrative sanctions. They are permissible, but one has to be very careful in respect of administrative sanctions, which could have a big impact on one's livelihood depending on whether the sanction imposed is a major one. They have to be used in accordance with natural justice and can never overstep or oust the jurisdiction of the courts. I appreciate that there can be an oral hearing, which is a good thing, and that evidence may be taken under oath. I would like to see the wording changed so that evidence shall be taken under oath or affirmation. Again, this is a matter for Committee Stage but, in the explanatory memorandum, it states, "A person cannot be the subject of both an administrative sanction and a criminal penalty for a contravention under the anti-avoidance provisions", which is interesting. Never the twain shall meet. An administrative sanction and a sanction of the courts are distinctly different. Perhaps it is just relevant to this very limited and restricted area but Mr. Justice Frank Clarke gave a Supreme Court decision in a case involving Gerard Killally in which I acted. There was a criminal sanction in respect of a bankruptcy matter and the question was whether that would prevent an official assignee from applying an administrative sanction away from the courts. In that instance, the Supreme Court held that both can coexist. I notice that in this specific section - and I know this is a discrete point that is appropriate to Committee Stage - it does not seem possible for both to coexist. Perhaps we could get an explanation as to why it is not possible under this very limited section, which I note only applies to anti-avoidance provisions, on Committee Stage.

I also welcome the fact that the Minister of State has said that a code for administrative sanctions is to be published. That is very important and I look forward to reading it because, if these things are not done properly, it is a recipe for matters ending up in litigation in the High Court. No one wants that. It is unnecessary and can be avoided if things are done properly and fairly.

Once again, the Green Party supports this latest strengthening, this latest brick in building the structure of a modern regulatory response to lobbying that has at its heart transparency and fairness, once we strike that balance. I fully concur with the Minister of State's remarks in opening this Second Stage debate. He can be assured of the support of the Green Party grouping as this progresses through the House. We will keep an eye on it. I look forward to engaging in the debate on Committee and Report Stages.