Paul Gavan (Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I wish to put on record that I am more than disappointed that the Minister for Health is not present. He has bottled it because he knows he has no answers to the issue I will raise in respect of University Hospital Limerick, UHL. I am interested to hear the response of the Minister of State who is from Limerick. He may be aware there is considerable divergence between the official HSE figures for the number of admitted patients on trolleys and the figures as counted by the Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation, INMO. During a debate in the Seanad on Wednesday, 1 February, the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, said there were just eight patients on trolleys in UHL that morning. He went on to say, "In the past week the average has been about six." However, figures from the INMO show there were 78 people on trolleys in UHL on the morning of 1 February. In the week before that, there were between 44 and 65 patients waiting for an in-hospital bed. Mary Fogarty, the INMO assistant director of industrial relations, told the Limerick Post that the Minister's figures have no basis in reality. She went on to say:

We were at the hospital on Thursday, February 2, and established that his figures are absolutely wrong. I have no idea where the Minister got the figures but there were 77 people on trolleys when we were there.

The Minister of State knows Mary Fogarty. I spoke to her yesterday. She described the HSE figures as bizarre and confirmed that the INMO figure is taken at 9.20 each morning. As the Minister of State will be aware, the HSE figure is taken three times a day and claimed there were eight patients on trolleys at 8 a.m. on the morning in question. It is simply not credible for the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, to state there were eight patients on trolleys at 8 a.m. on 1 February when the INMO tells us there were 78 patients on trolleys at 9.20 a.m. It should be borne in mind that Mary Fogarty spoke directly to staff in the emergency department to verify those figures.

The Minister of State need not take her word on this issue, however. Ger Kennedy of SIPTU, who represents the support staff in the emergency department, also confirmed to me that the HSE figure is nonsense. I put it to the Minister of State that 11,000 people did not take to the streets of Limerick to protest about the chronic crisis in capacity in staffing because of eight people being on trolleys.

The reason this is so serious is that implicit in the statement of the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, is a belief that there is no crisis in respect of patients on trolleys in UHL.I would be interested in hearing the Minister of State's position. While I know he has a script to read, it is too important a matter. I want to know whether the Minister of State acknowledges that the INMO figures are correct. I want to know whether the Minister of State acknowledges there is a massive crisis with patients on trolleys in University Hospital Limerick. I ask this because, frankly, when the Minister was sitting in that seat two weeks ago, he said quite the opposite. He stuck to the figure of eight patients that the HSE gave. The Minister of State and I both know those figures are absolute nonsense. There is a difference in how the figures are calculated, but in no way do they go anywhere near closing the gap between the two figures, which are eight patients and 78 patients. By the way, if one looks at the figures over the last month, it will show that a significant gap is always there. There are gaps of 40, 50 and 60 between the INMO and the HSE figures.

It is worth exploring this topic. We know if that if a patient is in a cubicle in the emergency department in UHL, and he or she is still on a trolley, mind, that person will not be included in the HSE figure. Is the Minister of State happy with the exclusion of those people from those numbers? We know the INMO also counts patients placed on wards, corridors or chairs elsewhere in the hospital who are waiting for admission to a bed. However, the HSE figures the Minister quotes excludes those people again. What is the Minister of State's opinion on that? Does he think people who are on trolleys who are not in the emergency department should be excluded? Clearly, the Minister for Health does. I remind the Minister of State that previous Ministers for Health, such as the Minister of State's colleague, James Reilly, were happy to accept those INMO figures. Indeed, when Deputy Stephen Donnelly was in opposition, he was happy to quote the INMO figures. However, he has been in constant denial here on not just one but two occasions in the past month. To be frank, I believe that is why the Minister for Health is not present this morning, because he would have no answers in relation to this crisis. The people of Limerick want to know at the very least whether the Minister for Health understands there is a chronic crisis in UHL. He was in denial here two weeks ago. I hope the Minister of State will give me a positive answer and that he will be very clear that he accepts those INMO figures.