Barry Ward (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I acknowledge what the Minister of State said about the importance of public order and the fact that people will feel safe on the streets. He spoke about the right to be safe and the right to feel safe. This is tremendously important. It is as important in Dún Laoghaire as in Dunshaughlin, Dunmanway or Dunmore. It is a problem that exists throughout the country. It is not just on O'Connell Street or in Dublin but it exists in every town and many villages around the country.

The effect of public disorder and of a threat on the street is pervasive. It fundamentally disturbs a person's right to peaceably enjoy where they live. It is wrong and we must make it a priority to tackle. That is evident in what the Government has done in relation to the gardaí and the laws on public order. I welcome the initiatives that are already in place. I do not propose to go through them all. The Minister of State mentioned some already. I want to acknowledge that the Department of Justice, the Minister, Deputy McEntee, and the Minister of State, Deputy James Browne, have put in place a number of measures to help people and to help the gardaí as well in relation to public disorder and the idea of safety in the street.

However, what goes hand-in-hand with this discussion is some of the mythology that travels with public disorder. Something happens and it becomes a viral tweet as another Senator mentioned. Things were being done to deal with these issues before any viral tweet came out and it is certainly not the case that any government, whether it is a government of my party or any other, needs to see a viral tweet to take action. The evidence is there that the Government has been taking consistent action over a long number of years. However, the fact there is something on the Internet that shows a public disorder incident, in Dublin city or wherever it might be, brings it to the fore and unfortunately it leads to a conversation that suggests to people that it is not safe to walk down the street. I have refuted that on a number of occasions. I do not believe that it is true in Ireland, in Dublin or in most towns or villages around this country. It does not mean that incidents do not occur or that there is not criminality or disorder or that there are not people who feel unsafe as a consequence of something that has either happened to them or that they have witnessed. All that happens and must be dealt with. However, it is important to be very clear that Ireland is still, if not the safest country in European, then among them and Dublin is probably the safest capital city in Europe. That is why it is extremely unhelpful to talk in terms of problematic subcultures. I do not even know what that means but the previous Senator mentioned that and proceeded to list a whole load of myths that go with this discussion which are unhelpful and absolutely unjustified.

I will address the talk of Garda numbers. There was certainly a glitch in Garda recruitment. It was primarily due to having two years of lockdown and we could not open Templemore and get trainees in but the Senator selectively chose to ignore that the budget allowed for 1,000 new gardaí next year and another 400 civilian staff. Those 400 civilian staff are tremendously important because they put gardaí out of Garda stations and onto the streets. The guys and girls in the uniforms who are trained to deal with public order and all other types of criminality are on the streets rather than stamping passport forms, doing other administrative work or writing up statements or whatever paperwork they need to do. That is a measure that puts gardaí on the beat. I do not disagree that is part, if not a major part, of the solution.

It is not the case, however, that anyone is being turned away from An Garda Síochána because they cannot do enough push-ups. What a flippant and disrespectful remark to make about the quality of gardaí going into the force. We are tremendously lucky in this country to have a force in An Garda Síochána that is highly trained and responsible. We saw that during the pandemic when they had to deal with incredibly difficult public order situations not two streets away from this House, where they had fireworks shot at them and projectiles thrown at them. The gardaí did not respond in a disproportionate manner but in the way that they were trained to respond because we have maintained a high level of training and responsibility. Their job is not easy but we are incredibly lucky to have men and women in that force who discharge their duty respectfully and responsibly.

I heard a discussion on this on the radio this week. Someone suggested they should be armed or given more weaponry because people do not mess with police in Spain, France or wherever because if you do, they beat the living whatever out of you.I do not want a police force like that. I do not want a police state and I do not want a situation whereby, when I am on the street, I am afraid of the gardaí rather than the perpetrators of public disorder. What I want is a highly trained force. We should mark the fact this is what we have, notwithstanding that we need more gardaí. That is undoubtedly true but I acknowledge what the Minister of State, the Minister, Deputy McEntee, and the Department have done to put more gardaí on the street. It is worth nothing that we have more members in service in An Garda Síochána today than ever before in the history of the State. That is no small achievement and it is worthy of acknowledgement, rather than the derision we have heard so far in this debate.

I want to address the issues that were brought up regarding self-defence. The law on self-defence is very clear and also very proportionate. No more than saying to people they should go out on the streets with pepper spray, a baton or, God forbid, a kitchen knife, the law does not say that if somebody breaks into a person's house, he or she must sit there for three hours and wait for the Garda. That is an absolute supposition on the part of the Senator who said it and it also is an irresponsible thing to say. People are, of course, entitled to defend themselves if somebody breaks into their home. What the law says, however, is that one must do so proportionately. People are not allowed to stab someone just because he or she comes into their house. This is not the United States. We must have a rule of law that retains a sense of proportionality, which was absent in the statement by the speaker who went before me.

What are the solutions? The first point to make is that there is no easy solution. I acknowledge what the Minister of State said, which is that the solution cannot just be a policing one. The solution starts well before that. It is about education and resources. The focus required is quite different from what Senator Keogan said about there being a problematic subculture. I do not know what that means but I certainly do not recognise it in the communities I work in throughout my area and in the people I have met throughout the country, including through my professional work as a barrister. I meet a lot of people involved in criminal disorder but I do not see this problematic subculture. I see people who have never had a chance. I see people who have had every opportunity stripped away from them because of the peer group of which they are part, the drugs in their area or other disadvantages.

I see that we can address these issues at source. Prevention is better than cure. Putting in place resources for communities in which these problems exist is not just a responsible but an effective solution to public disorder. Education goes hand in hand with that. As mentioned earlier, it is about showing people, particularly young men, how their behaviour may be threatening to other citizens. Shouting on the street, messing and brawling, even if it is all in good fun, never mind when it gets serious, can be really intimidating to others, particularly elderly people and people, especially women, who are on their own. Showing those engaging in such behaviour that this is the case will often, in and of itself, help to deal with the problem. I do not think there is a huge coterie of people engaged in such activity or a problematic subculture. There is not a huge number of people who set out to make others' lives a misery. There certainly are people involved in criminality and the law must deal with them. However, there also are people who do not have other diversions and opportunities available to them. They do not have access to sports clubs, projects or the same educational opportunities as others. Those people need to be targeted.

If we are serious about having safe streets and dealing with public disorder, then, yes, we need more gardaí and more resources, but we also need to deal with the root causes and show people there are other options available to them. We must educate them, resource them and ensure they have the capacity not to get involved in public disorder or other criminality but to go down a constructive route whereby they have other opportunities available to them that are constructive both for them and for other members of society.