Gerard Craughwell (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I will try not to. The IALPA representatives have engaged with us, as have the IAA representatives. To me, IALPA's concerns comprise the premier issue. I want to see its concerns met. The reason I want to see them met is that we have a documented history in this country of pilots making complaints and raising issues of concern, including in respect of health and safety, and of those issues being ignored. We lost four decent, honest, hard-working crew when Rescue 116 went down. The litany of instances of disregard for the experts piloting aircraft should worry all of us.

In considering a licenceholders' forum, we should consider an analogy. In the health service, are surgeons likely to meet everybody in their hospital to discuss issues of concern or issues relating to poor practice or another subject? I do not believe so. One meets at a professional level the people with professional expertise to discuss issues of concern. Therefore, licenceholders should not be diluted in any way with those who are non-licenceholders.If we wants to set up another forum for a sort of general chat among the entire staff of a particular airline, or a group of airlines, then by all means let us do so. It is probably not a bad idea to have some form of discussion generally about how the organisations operate. However, when we are talking about the guys who sit in the cabin up front flying the aircraft and the engineers who are highly skilled personnel, then these are the people whom we and IALPA want on the licence holders forum.

Nobody is trying to undermine anybody here but I am somewhat concerned and find it hard to understand that the people who drafted this legislation, or who had a massive impact on the drafting of this legislation, the IAA, do not understand or seem not to understand what is being asked of them and of this legislation by IALPA members and experts on the ground. To be honest, the Minister of State has been put in a horrible position trying to defend something that is in indefensible. At the end of the day it is the experts on the ground who need to be listened to, not people who work out of offices or wherever else.

On the issues that have been raised by my colleague, regarding the twice yearly meeting, at least we know when the meetings will take place. The next thing is the members and we know who is going to be there. Going back to my trade union days, one of the most important things in the world is having a name you can go to, somebody who is identifiable and with whom you can raise a concern if you have one. That is why raising the names of the individuals involved in the forum is very important. In addition, from my three and fourpence worth, to avoid industrial disputes and the like, having representation from the trade union group is entirely a valid operation. It ensures concerns are raised on behalf of those who are represented in that room.

On best practice, can we argue about sharing stuff on best practice? I do not believe we can.

On engagement with the company in matters relating to regulation, aviation, safety and commercial air transport, I ask the Minister of State to think back to the Rescue 116 and the engagement that took place with the company, from pilots and crew, that was totally and utterly disregarded and no effort whatsoever made to meet their requirements and ensure better practices were in place. Read the report; the report is very clear on where things were at. What we are talking about here is that pilots and other licence holders have a voice, that that voice is documented and that it is there for everybody to see and for future reference if something goes wrong. Nobody ever wants to be in a position where they can say "I told you so", but in air safety it is something that is really important. All you have to do is take your phone out and look at the app that traces aircraft flying across our skies any day of the week, and there are literally tens of thousands of aircraft in the sky at any given time. All we want is that those flying from Irish airports under Irish flags have the confidence there is a system in place they are feeding into and that they feel comfortable doing so. I am not so sure pilots would feel comfortable in some broad church where we sit down with those who pack suitcases into aircraft and who work as ground crew. We are talking about licence holders, the people whom we trust to keep these machines in the sky and ensure they get from A to B safely, so from that point of view I will be supporting this amendment.

In order that we progress this legislation I ask the Minister of State to accept this amendment so we can move on and get this legislation out of this House, and enacted, because I know people want to see it enacted. I am happy to work with her but, for me, this aspect is an absolute and has to happen.