Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

We will get to that in a moment. I disagree. That context is important because that is the policy intent. On the issue of students or student unions, the definition of students set out sections 80, 90, 112 and 128 includes the student union. The interpretation of the word "students" is a student or student union. I sought legal advice on this. The reference to students means all students. This legislation means that the university or higher education institution has an obligation to engage with the student union or every single student in the university or higher education institution. It is not a case of having a little hand-picked group of students who are not the student union but who the institution says it wants to talk to. That is not the policy intent or the legal interpretation of the word "students" in the legislation. It is also important to note that definitions are included in the Bill. One states, "“representatives of students” shall include officers of a national student union in their capacity as such officers." The Bill states, "“student” means a person registered as a student by a higher education provider with that provider." It defines student union too. Issues arise in this legislation which deserve separate, stand-alone legislation. The Houses of the Oireachtas, perhaps through a committee engaging with student unions, could do good, meaningful work to bring that forward. I am happy to provide the support of my Department on that and to work with people on it.

I have largely dealt with amendments Nos. 80 and 81 during previous discussions of sitting county councillors and trade unions. My answer on that stands, as do my answers regarding previous amendments.

I come to an important issue raised by Senator Ruane. Senator Higgins's name is on the amendment too. It relates to positive mental health and well-being. I acknowledge the good, important work going on in our higher education institutions to promote positive mental health and ensure that our institutions have appropriate policies in place to address this issue. In this legislation, we have not, for better or for worse, set out all of the specific areas. We have not set out many different specific policies, from student freedom to express views, sustainable development, ethical funding and research integrity, because the intention is to use section 143 of the legislation to bring forward those codes and guidelines. My Department and I consider it more appropriate to address the intent of the proposed amendment through the implementation of the legislation. The issue of academic precarity is similar.

I come to the specific issues raised by Senator Higgins. I thank her for raising these. While we may not agree, I accept the way she tabled these amendments in good faith. I do not doubt that at all. I will not list all of the amendments because it is a long list. These new amendments, starting with amendment No. 111a and running to amendment No. 139b, propose to amend the provision that the governing authority or body of universities, technological universities, institutes of technology and National College of Art and Design shall satisfy itself that appropriate systems, procedures and practices are in place in order to implement, and report on compliance with, the policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government to the extent that those policies may affect or relate to the functions of the university. The wording of this section was changed after engaging with the sector. After talking to the universities, through their representative body, they sought nuanced language. The original wording was, "in order to enable compliance." They specifically requested that the language be more nuanced and changed to "in order to implement, and report on compliance with." Senator Higgins was good enough not to suggest it, but this was not a view in the Department that we must include an issue about compliance. We engaged with the sector. It suggested that the wording of "in order to enable compliance" was too rigid and too far-reaching. We amended the language to "in order to implement, and report on."

There was a good meeting with some Senators, including Senators Higgins and Ruane, in July. Issues regarding the provision were raised. It was a useful engagement. My Department sought legal advice as a result of that in order to clarify the intent of the provision. The legal advice is that this is not a substantive provision conferring any new power on a Government or on a Minister of the Government to issue codes, guidelines or other documents to universities that would place an obligation on universities to implement them. I will come back to the term, "a Minister of the Government", in a moment. It is still an important provision. The Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications has every right to ask how our publicly-funded universities are getting on with our climate action plan. No Minister can act in defiance of the laws passed by the Oireachtas. That is the check.

There are times where a Minister of the Government has every right to ask what publicly-funded institutions, whether they are autonomous or not, are doing to fulfil legal obligations that this country has. There could not be a more important or obvious area than climate action, where the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, rather than me, has a responsibility. The Government may wish to see how all sectors are getting on, including schools, universities or Garda stations, with the work that they need to do to be compliant. That is where this comes from. It is not unusual. I think it is important. Heaven forbid, it might even be considered whole-of-government thinking.The purpose of the new subsection (1A) is to provide for an obligation on the governing authority of a university, technological university, institute of technology or the National College of Art and Design to satisfy itself - which is important because this legislation is about building up internal governance - that appropriate systems, procedures and practices are in place to implement and report on compliance with the policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government to the extent that those policies may affect or relate to the functions of the university. The Senator predicted I would say those last few words. The phase "to the extent that those policies may affect or relate to the functions of the university" means that the types of policies contemplated are provided elsewhere under separate statutory provision. I would, of course, give the example of section 143, which empowers an t-údarás "to prepare or adopt and issue guidelines, codes or policies". I have received legal advice that this is not a substantive provision conferring any new power. Powers exist elsewhere in statute, through an t-údarás or section 143. This is a reporting mechanism, a mechanism for looping back in, within the legislation. I have received advice-----